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Trigger Warning! Transgender Rights vs "Radical" Feminists - on treatment for children

Discussion in 'News & Politics' started by Jianghu, Feb 8, 2020.  |  Print Topic

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  1. Jianghu
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    Jianghu chinese american gay dude
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    ** TRIGGER WARNING, esp for lesbian and transgender friends. This is one of the most painful subjects in all of LGBTQ discussion. I hate to open wounds, but perhaps we can't advance as a community if we bury the topic.

    This culture war has been going on for decades, but it seems to be flaring up again because trans people are rapidly gaining support. The rights of children has become a new battleground:

    Conservatives find unlikely ally in fighting transgender rights: Radical feminists

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...l-feminists-conservatives-transgender-rights/

    (If you hit a paywall, disable Javascript in your browser, then refresh the link.

    Full text is at the end – moderators, if cut-and-paste violates copyright rules then please delete it.)

    If anyone wants to chat about this I hope we can do so without "cancelling" anyone, lol.

    * *

    My take:

    I sympathize almost unconditionally with transgender men and women. (Though I'm open, out of ignorance, to more discussion on "niche" issues like gender criteria in professional sports.)

    So I'm disappointed that certain women can find common cause with lawmakers who would legislate them back to abject subservience, to say nothing of what they'd do to LGBTQs.

    I reject the gender essentialism that underpins "radical feminism"; to me it's the same binary illusion that props up cis-male supremacy and cis-male violence.

    WoLF activists even strike me as the mirror-image of "alt-right fan boys" – but if I'm missing something here, tell me.

    Because I don't know what it's like to "survive girlhood". I've never faced the spectrum of violence – from micro-aggressions to sex-trafficking, rape and murder – that cis females face from birth onward.

    I'm even less qualified to comment on the psychiatric and physiological issues involved in modifying children's bodies.

    Could there be some parallel between medical treatment for transgender children – and conversion therapy to "cure" homosexuality ? In that these are highly intrusive interventions carried out on a vulnerable social group ?

    I'm just posing the question. I'd like to support the rights of transgender minors – esp if they have supportive parents – to transition medically. But I'm not informed enough to argue the case.

    * *

    TEXT OF ARTICLE

    She introduced herself to a room full of conservative lawmakers as a bisexual woman, a longtime political progressive and the leader of a radical feminist organization.

    Listening to Natasha Chart through a Skype call were more than a dozen South Dakota state representatives, most of them Republican, considering a bill to criminalize medical treatments for transgender children.

    “Doctors shouldn’t help kids take out their sadness and anger on the only bodies we can ever have,” she said in her testimony to South Dakota’s House State Affairs Committee on Jan. 22. “Please vote yes to forbid the sterilization of these young people.”

    The Women’s Liberation Front is part of a long-running strain of feminism that rejects the existence of transgender identity. These fringe activists argue that advancements in transgender rights will come at the expense of women’s rights and threaten the safety and sanctity of women-only spaces. They say women are defined not by their gender identity, but by their biology and by having “survived girlhood.”

    Mainstream progressives have long shunned the organization, calling it a discriminatory, right-wing group disguised as feminist. But the Women’s Liberation Front, also known as WoLF, has found an increasingly influential platform by teaming up with conservatives who disagree with their support of abortion rights and the “reproductive sovereignty” of women.

    WoLF’s leaders have become frequent guests on “Tucker Carlson Tonight” and at Heritage Foundation events. The group received a $15,000 grant from the Alliance Defending Freedom to help fund a legal fight against the Obama administration over transgender bathroom policies. It also filed an amicus brief in one of the most consequential Supreme Court cases of the year, arguing that sex-based discrimination protections in the workplace should not apply to transgender people.

    Now, WoLF is even helping shape legislation in places like South Dakota, which last month became the first state to advance a wave of state bills nationwide banning medical interventions for transgender youth. Kara Dansky, a WoLF board member from the District, plans to travel to South Dakota on Monday to testify in favor of the bill in a Senate committee hearing.

    Emboldened by the Trump administration and a conservative majority on the Supreme Court, Republican politicians across the country have made transgender issues, particularly those affecting transgender children, a key target for 2020. And Chart and other radical feminists are helping to bolster their message, creating the perception of bipartisan support in a polarizing social debate.

    Republican state lawmakers push bills to restrict medical treatments for transgender youths

    Ria Tabacco Mar, director of the Women’s Rights Project at the American Civil Liberties Union, called the partnership a “false alliance” that seeks to divide the LGBTQ community, as well as progressives.

    “That’s what’s driving their influence — the false claiming of a feminist mantle and attaching that label to anti-transgender positions,” Tabacco Mar said. “This is not a principle of crossing party lines. This is a principle of exclusion.”

    But the members of WoLF, many of whom are lesbian, claim they are the victims of exclusion and “cancel culture.” They say they’ve been kicked off Twitter, excommunicated from social circles and fired from jobs for expressing their views on gender identity.

    In December, J.K. Rowling drew widespread outrage for tweeting in support of one such employee, a British researcher who claimed she was fired for her anti-trans social media posts, or as Rowling put it, for “stating that sex is real.” Within hours, one of the trending topics on Twitter was “JK Rowling is a TERF,” a commonly used acronym for “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.”

    Last weekend, the tensions between the TERFs and transgender advocates erupted at the Seattle Public Library as hundreds of women converged for a WoLF-organized event, “Fighting the New Misogyny: A Feminist Critique of Gender Identity.” More than 2,400 people signed a petition demanding that the library cancel the event, urging it not to use a “public venue to spread hate against transgender people.” But the library cited its commitment to intellectual freedom, even when it disagrees with the views of an organization.

    On Saturday night, as hundreds of people packed the auditorium, about as many protesters stood outside, waving trans pride flags and shouting “TERFs go home!”

    “If you don’t fight for ALL women,” one sign read, “you fight for no women.”

    A new platform for a decades-old message

    The fight between radical feminists and transgender rights advocates began decades ago, amid the second-wave feminism of the 1970s.

    Mary Daly, a self-described “radical lesbian feminist” who taught at Boston College, argued that transgender women aren’t women, because “no male can assume female chromosomes and life history/experience.” Her student, Janice Raymond, wrote the 1979 book “The Transsexual Empire,” pushing the belief that transgender women reinforce outdated gender stereotypes and pose a threat to gender equality.

    WoLF supports abortion rights and combating violence against women. But the group’s recent work has overwhelmingly focused on fighting against the growing transgender rights movement.

    “Gender identity is literally threatening to erase women and girls as a meaningful category … in language and in law,” said Dansky, one of the group’s most vocal leaders. “We view that as an emergency.”

    Rejected by mainstream feminists, the group has increasingly found a home with conservative organizations. And what’s unusual is WoLF’s “willingness not just to sort of flirt with the right, but to full-on coalition,” said Nancy Whittier, a Smith College professor who specializes in gender and social movements.

    WoLF began aligning itself with conservative groups in 2016, after the Obama administration released its “Dear Colleague” letter providing guidance for Title IX protections for transgender students in schools. WoLF filed a lawsuit against the U.S. Justice Department, and later an amicus brief to the Supreme Court opposing a Virginia student’s right to use bathrooms that matched his gender identity.

    Dansky appeared on Fox News and in a video on the website for the Family Policy Alliance arguing that the transgender bathroom policy would be harmful for girls and women. “How wrong does something have to be for a Christian pro-family organization and a self-described radical-feminist group to oppose it together at the Supreme Court?” the Family Policy Alliance website stated.

    WoLF’s name also appears alongside conservative Christian groups in a “Parent Resource Guide” about “Responding to the Transgender Issue,” which has circulated among conservative parent groups across the country, even in increasingly liberal places such as Virginia’s Loudoun County.

    Angry parents protest LGBTQ books in Virginia classrooms

    Last year, Dansky joined Rep. Vicky Hartzler (R-Mo.) at a news conference to oppose the Equality Act, which would add sexual orientation and gender identity as a protected class to federal civil rights law. In October, WoLF helped organize a rally outside the Supreme Court in opposition to the case of transgender funeral director Aimee Stephens.

    And that same month, Chart spoke at a Heritage Foundation event in Washington, attended by state Rep. Fred Deutsch, the conservative South Dakota legislator who sponsored the bill restricting transgender medical treatments for youth.

    Deutsch reached out to Chart, WoLF’s board chair, on Twitter, she said. He later asked both Chart and Dansky to testify in support of his bill in a House committee hearing. And when the bill faced a vote on the full House floor a week later, Deutsch invoked Dansky, referring to her as a “lifelong Democrat and former ACLU lawyer” who “came to testify for a Republican.”

    The bill passed the House, 46 to 23. A flurry of other state bills focused on trans youth have emerged across the country, and WoLF is already in talks with some of their sponsors.

    ‘Cancelled Women’

    WoLF claims about 300 members nationwide, a group that Dansky said has grown steadily in recent years. Many of them communicate via a Gab server called “Spinster,” which has become an outlet for anti-trans feminists who have been kicked off other social media platforms or who want to keep their views hidden from their employers.

    Several women who identified as members of WoLF declined to give their full names to The Post, citing fears of harassment or other repercussions in their social lives or workplaces.

    Until about a month ago, Dansky worked as a general counsel on the District of Columbia’s Sentencing Commission. While the commission’s director confirmed that she voluntarily resigned, Dansky said she felt the pressure to do so from critics who reached out to her boss to condemn her views on gender identity. Ultimately, Dansky said, the role became “untenable” given her role with WoLF.

    Another WoLF member, a 29-year-old who provided only her first name, Karen, works as a software engineer in Seattle and served as the lead organizer of the Seattle library event.

    She said she started digging into radical feminist writings after she was shut down by a circle of mostly queer friends when she asked them critical questions about gender identity. “Being told that I was just hateful for even asking these fairly straightforward questions really kind of pushed me to actually question this even further,” she said.

    The group decries what it sees as the “cancel culture” of the political left. It’s even become part of the group’s brand. A recent event hosted by WoLF in New York was titled “An Evening With Cancelled Women.” The original location for the gathering, the New York Public Library, ultimately rejected the booking, forcing them to find a different meeting place. “That’s right. They cancelled us,” Chart wrote in a statement on WoLF’s website.

    Heron Greenesmith, a senior research analyst with the social justice think tank Political Research Associates, who tracks the group, argues this “positioning of martyrdom and silencing” is also a strategy to underscore the group’s image as a beleaguered faction of the left, “despite the fact that they’re being platformed by the largest, most-funded legal organizations in the world.”

    In reality, LGBTQ advocates say, transgender people — particularly transgender women of color — continue to be among the most marginalized communities in America. At least 26 transgender or gender-nonconforming people were killed last year, according to the Human Rights Campaign. The American Medical Association has called the pattern of violence an “epidemic.”

    But at the Seattle Public Library event last weekend, the leaders of WoLF again portrayed themselves as the targets of attacks from the progressive movement.

    “We expected authoritarianism from the right. We weren’t prepared for it from the left,” said Lierre Keith, one of WoLF’s founding members and a speaker on the event’s panel. “The most basic facts of biologyare now considered a hate crime, which means the reality of women’s lives are back to being unspeakable.”

    As the program began, a group of 10 ticket holders seated in the back — some of them transgender women — chanted “trans rights are human rights.”

    When library staff asked them to leave, eight of them agreed. But two refused to move. Other women stood to face them, crossing their arms. As the protesters continued to chant, it energized the crowd.

    “Let women speak!” they shouted. “Let women speak!”

    Officers arrested two of the protesters for trespassing, according to Seattle police.

    “Don’t take him to a woman’s prison,” one woman shouted, assuming the protester was transgender. “He’s a man.”

    As the police officers escorted the protesters out of the building, the crowd burst into cheers, and the event continued.
     
    #1 Jianghu, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  2. Alsthom
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    IMO, that's what the TERFs want everyone to believe.
    I don't know that much about it, but I don't think doctors would tamper with a child's health (physical and mental) just because the parents ask them to.
    Not to mention that for a child, you basically don't have to do anything until they reach puberty. How many children have you seen mistaken for another gender when they are cis? Girls called boys because they have short hair, and the other way round?
    By that time, children who know what's going on with them are usually pretty sure that they ARE trans, and want to go through the puberty that matches their gender.

    "They cancel us" say the same people who are happy when they cancel thair opponents...

    Do we even need to get to the subject of trans women "invading" women's spaces?
    They have no idea how much paperwork (and often money) it takes to have your gender changed. A man who would want to invade a women-only space would just walk through the door.

    What about after/during transition? Plus, we face transphobic violence, including from TERFs.

    To me they are just like flat-earthers (and other like movements) : they don't make sense, but they refuse to listen to anyone else. Too much of an ego (which is something they would blame men for).
     
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  3. MyNameIsLuis

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    Pure hate speech. You can easily replace transgender people with black people and radical feminists with white supremacists and read this in an article from 1965.

    The fact that they feel more at home with people and organizations that are actually hurting women's rights says it all.
     
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  4. RuneBeau
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    The number one fear people try to sell is that children are being medically transitioned thoughtlessly. No children medically transition, teenagers do. Teenagers that have spent years with multiple healthcare professionals, jumping through the hoops that are required for people under the age of 18, that have consent from a parent, and a referral letter from a therapist.

    The number two fear sold, sterilization. The thought of getting someone pregnant or being pregnant creates a lot of gender dysphoria for most people seeking medical transition, people can freeze eggs/sperm, reproduction isn't more important than someone's quality of life especially when suicide rates are so high, and trans people can still reproduce. Hormones reduce the chances of reproduction. For some folks that were low to begin with that means they won't be able to have children naturally but many trans people can still get others pregnant or become pregnant, if they haven't had lower surgery yet or don't need lower surgery.

    So what is this really all about? Society doesn't want trans people to exist because they view us as a lie and they're afraid of us and who often gets away with that "lie" more easily? People that transition early.

    The thought that anyone could be trans; a teacher, boss, best friend, cashier, scares people and instead of dealing with that phobia they want to make it more and more difficult for trans people to pass by restricting transgender medicine.
     
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  5. Rachelle0101
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    I'm a cis lesbian and I dislike TERFs and wouldn't even think about questionin the identity of trans people. TERFism is an ideology that should disappear, it's not even feminism.
     
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  6. AudryLeigh
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    AudryLeigh TRANSSEXUAL WOMAN!
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    Seems like they should get the message. They are being treated in the same way as white supremacists because they are WRONG, and their views are hate speech and nothing less.
    Surprise, surprise! Bigots get harassed at work and in their private lives -- what do they expect? I call out and harass every one of them I get the chance to, and I ALWAYS get the support of the vast majority of the other people in the vicinity, These people think they are a silent (or silenced) majority. If they really were a majority they wouldn't be facing so much resistance. Being vocal is dangerous though. Don't let them get away with it. Call them out and hammer them with the contradictions and falsehoods in their arguments. Today the focus is on transsexuals, tomorrow it will be the entire LGBT+ community. WIth society headed back into the Dark Ages, we need to fight harder than ever to unite and galvanize ourselves against the loudmouths who would sway the sheep out there who simply listen to the loudest voice and don't think for themselves. And we need to be ready to fight for our rights, and I don't mean just verbally. LGBT+ people tend to be non-violent by their nature, but we are rapidly approaching a situation where argument, no matter how eloquent, will be of no use. When LGBT+ people start being arrested for trivial infractions and then are never heard from again, it will be time to react, and that reaction may have to come in the form of violent uprisings. Society is rapidly becoming uncivilized, and another Dark Ages (or even Armageddon) is not an impossibility. It is those who are prepared who will survive. And now is the time to start using the force of our numbers (which are greater than anyone knows) to drown out the cries of those who would seek to eliminate us out of nothing more than their fear of us. The "phobic" part of transphobic and homophobic means fear, plain and simple. Back when those terms first came into use, those who coined them knew that all this is entirely fear based. In reality we are facing nothing more (or less) than frightened brats who are afraid of having their "cis privilege" taken away. There is no more such a thing as cis privilege than there is of white privilege or male privilege. Though none of them see it that way, they are actually terrified of us. We must NOT let them turn the tables and make us afraid.

    Sincerely,
    Audry Leigh
     
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  7. Kahlan

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    I think the spirit of feminism has been lost here. Don't get me wrong, I totally get it, Women have been fighting hard for equality for centuries now, and it's been a long, slow, uphill battle. However, the whole point of the women's liberation movement was/is about equality and freedom. It is wrong to oppress any people group...period. So in this instance, it appear the oppressed have become the oppressors...they have lost their vision of what is right, and have fallen victim to the same self serving goals and attitudes that created the whole mess of inequality in the first place. Shame on them. A 2020 woman should be "woke" enough to have empathy for the plight of trans people. I think the reason why these groups don't, is that they are largely made up of women who have, in one way or another, been victimized by men, but we should never allow our or circumstance to reign over sound reasoning, and a heart of understanding, and accepting.
     
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    #7 Kahlan, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  8. Thief King Bakura
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    Thief King Bakura I solenmly swear I am Up to no good.
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    This article is eerily reminiscent of some issues and Bill's trying to be passed in Iowa. These bills are anti LGBT and very discriminatory. One bill so far has been shot dead, there's another that's trying to forbid what educators can teach regarding the subjects of sexual orientation anda gender identity, I think one regarding transgender athletes. I don't know all the details but I know that all of these are very harmful to those of us who are transgender/transsexual and LGBT community living in the state of Iowa.

    Unfortunately, terfs are pieces of shit. They try to spread this rhetoric of trans people bad and it often backfires in their face. Sounds like just another classic case of terfs being terfs and people are tired of it, at least those of us who have a conscience are tired of it. I am certainly tired of the attack upon our human rights. The turf propaganda is spread bye fear, hate, ignorance, stupidity, and not wanting to look at fact-based science that trans people are real and 90% of the time, a trans man or woman has a brain that aligns with the gender they identify as. Advancing trans rights is not an attack on women's rights: in fact it helps advance women's rights, it helps advance human rights as a whole.

    I can't stand terfs, they're not real feminists at all, they perpetuate a gross and dangerous narrative that we are some how a threat to THEIR rights. We are human too. I'm just tired of all this bullshit. It may be 2020 but the bullshit is flying even more than ever these days. We must stay vigilant and keep fighting bullshit, we need to keep fighting against those that wish to do us harm. Fuck TERFs, Begone!

    Sylveon says:[​IMG]

    Kahlan, this is so good! I honestly couldn't have said it better myself! The whole idea behind feminism and the feminist movement is....*drumroll* EQUALITY! Unfortunately, with a lot of these TERFs, that seems to be lost. They seem to think that their "feminism" is the only true feminism and that trans people take away from Women's rights which is SO TOTALLY NOT THE FUCKING CASE!

    Terf logic: wants equality...but wants to suppress minorities....

    People with a conscious: Yeah that makes no fucking sense, feminism and the feminist movement is about EQUALITY FOR ALL!

    Also, TERFs can rot in the 9th circle of hell for all I care. They aren't very accepting, quite the opposite actually. Again, Kahlan, I couldn't agree more with your post, so on point!
    [​IMG]

    My reaction to TERFs: [​IMG]
     
  9. Kahlan

    Kahlan Reliable Advisor
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    I can't think of a better slogan to live by than that!

    Why thank you kind sir. :) 
     
  10. Kimmers
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    my mum made me upset today when chatting to her she heard the same talk radio phone in about trans gender she said to me i got to be really carefull i said i know also she said i will still look like a man [​IMG] i said no i will have a female look with the hormones okay i will still have signs of being a male but that can be worked out voice etc , i said to her are you trying to stop me becoming what i am inside
     
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  11. 5%gay

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    I feel optimistic that this issue will iron itself out. Honestly radical feminists aren’t really taken seriously. And pretty much everyone thinks they are complete morons even conservatives. As a Texan woman I can in fact confirm that any online article stating that conservatives would ever work with them is fear mongering.

    Take a break from the Internet cause this stuff is not legitimate.
     
  12. AudryLeigh
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    Hi.
     

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