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Straight cis men

Discussion in 'Transsexual' started by AudryLeigh, Nov 19, 2019.  |  Print Topic

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  1. AudryLeigh
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    With very few exceptions, straight cis men freak me out these days. IDK why, they just do. I have nothing against them (consciously), and [so far] don't try to avoid them, but they freak me out. Ones that are very clean cut or well dressed not so much, but your average, everyday straight cis man seems like an alien species to me. This just started recently, and there is no event that precipitated it. I don't know what to think. Maybe it's because the World is still very much patriarchal, and the degree to which society in general is going crazy just hit some kind of critical mass for me and I'm just starting to distrust the entire group that seems in charge of things, though I know for a fact that generalizations are pretty much never correct, and I know that it's nothing even close to a majority of straight cis men who agree with or have anything to do with what's happening to our society today. It's getting worse though, and I'm worried that soon I will be avoiding them which will just isolate me even more than I'm already isolated. I'm pretty much OK with the men in the Karaoke groups I'm part of, but they're pretty much all quintessential gentlemen, and even there the generic straight cis men are starting to get to me. I guess I never really was one, but for 58 years I sure thought I was, and most of my working life I had jobs that were entirely, extremely, and exclusively male jobs. Maybe it has to do with the fact that in the last year or so I've found myself increasingly exposed to men who are clinical narcissists, and I've never known or even heard of a female or an LGBT person who is a clinical narcissist, but they are still only a tiny fraction of the men I'm around. The kind of man that would beat his woman or that thinks that just because he has a dick all women should worship him and want to fuck him have always freaked me out, but nothing about that has changed, including the percentage of men that I'm exposed to who are like that. I did just lose my supposedly lifetime, live in, at home caregiver and BFF, and that has drastically and extremely distressingly upended my life in a way that seems like I'll never recover from (I have some brain damage and really do need someone to help me with a lot of everyday things), but this had already started before she left. Anyway, it's kind of worrisome. I'd appreciate any insight anyone may be able to offer, or any suggestions as to how I might deal with this.

    Hugs,
    Audry Leigh
     
  2. Adora/ble

    Adora/ble Greenhorn
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    I think I get you, Audrey.

    I never realized it before, but especially groups of cis hetero men (even worse if they are intoxicated) scared the living shit out of me, even before I realized I was trans. I can handle the intoxicated homeless person asking for direction or a few cents, since I, myself have been fearing about becoming homeless and had to collect trash and bottles to make a minimum living.

    But ever since I became an intersectional feminist and more realized I am trans, I actively avoid cis hetero men or am wary of them during social meet ups. Especially in the current political climate. I just feel that you cannot really know what their true opinions and convictions are, or what they might do.

    In Addendum to that, I might lean myself out the window so far to say that most cis hetero men in leadership positions (especially political and commercial) are morons who have not emotionally matured past the age of 5. Society sadly is constructed in a way to reward selfish and narcisstic behavior, so these people will rise to the top.

    So I get your wariness. I share it.

    But to flip that coin:

    I know a couple of cis hetero men who reject those notions. Infact, it was a cis hetero man who was the second person I came out to and he has been nothing but the dearest friend to me. My step dad is a cis hetero man and he told my mum to allow herself and myself time, since I would go my path and that the most important thing was my happiness.

    What I mean to say is: Engaging with cis hetero-normative men is always a risk. I personally vet them thoroughly beforehand, go by accounts of trusted friends ere I decide whether I want to engage to a degree that makes me vulnerable. But so far the track record has been good.

    My advice: Take the risk if you have a safety net to fall unto. We do not know the minds of other people and some of them might surprise you. Either by their inherent beauty or by their ability to learn and listen.
     
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    #2 Adora/ble, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  3. Corvus
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    I understand exactly what you mean and yeah, it's been getting worse for me as well since I joined here. I guess I was never super comfortable among cis straight guys; they always bored me to death on the best days and disgusted me on the worst days; I think it's their whole mentality that they have to prove to everyone that they are a "real man" (whatever the F that means) and they constantly compete against each other for manly superiority, even when they're not aware they're doing it...they constantly try to one-up each other, whether in posture, the stories they tell and sometimes how misogynistic they can be. They remind me of a pack of dogs pissing on every lamp post another dog has already pissed on. Everything is hierarchy with them and it's absolutely exhausting.

    I think the big difference these last few months is that before I accepted myself there would always be a part of me always thought "You can't talk, you're a straight cis guy yourself" but finding out that I wasn't one of the big reliefs for me was that I did not, in fact, belong to a group that made me feel dirty, and that was amazing.

    Unfortunately I have no advice for you; I do my best to evaluate them individually just like I do here. I would never say "she's a lesbian, so she's x, y and not z" so I try not to do that out there but hell if they don't make it as difficult as they can, especially in those blasted locker-rooms...
     
  4. Dreamsexual
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    It doesn't seem a healthy or useful attitude to view all of any particular collective, whether gender/ ethnic/ age or whatever, as problematic. Everyone is an individual and should be evaluated as such. Beware group generalisations that can easily turn into prejudice.

    From my own experience, the groups that have hurt me the most, and I trust the least, have been cis hetero and lesbian women.
     
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  5. AudryLeigh
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    Oh, I know some very wonderful cis hetero men, don't get me wrong. It's just the generic bar room crowd of them that get to me. I don't ever say anything or treat them any differently, and sometimes one will surprise me by complimenting me on my last song, or doing something chivalrous, but in general they just freak me out.
    I don't view them as "problematic" and this is not headed towards prejudice -- I don't do prejudice. And in a group, cis het men do have a pack mentality and are not exactly individuals (see any sporting event for examples). Also, many cis het men ARE very immature, their social development seeming to have stopped in the Boy's High School locker room, and a significant number of them do in fact see females as sex objects or even toys. They don't frighten me at all, in fact if any of them gets out of line around me, I seem to frighten them -- but they do kind of freak me out these days. I think you are overthinking my comments.

    Audry Leigh
     
  6. Dreamsexual
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    Sorry Audry, but a number of comments you made in your post above about cis het men being x, y or z, seem like very negative stereotypes that could be equally applied to any humans.

    Imagine we replaced 'cis het men' in your post with another collective, like 'black men' or 'lesbians' or 'trans folk'. I'll leave it blank, but just hear how it sounds if you put some other group in that blank space:

    "And in a group, ______ do have a pack mentality and are not exactly individuals (see any sporting event for examples). Also, many _______ ARE very immature, their social development seeming to have stopped in the High School locker room, and a significant number of them do in fact see ______ as sex objects or even toys. They don't frighten me at all ... "

    We might have to agree to disagree as regards how this sounds. I mean no disrespect, and I don't know your life experience. But I've known a large number of cis het men who are just fine, and plenty of non- cis het men who aren't. I try hard not to make negative group judgements, I think it leads to a bad place.

    But maybe I'm just being naïve. I guess time will tell.
     
  7. AudryLeigh
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    Dream,

    You're really stretching here and I find it highly offensive. You simply cannot go changing what other people say in order to support your criticism. FIrst off, many black men are straight cis men, and I do not differentiate between black people and white people (or any other color people), so scratch your racial reference and your first example is moot (and a cheap example of playing the race card -- don't you dare imply that I have any racial bias, I risked my life and have friends who died fighting the race war in the South in the 60s/70s). Next, I've never seen pack mentality, or widespread immaturity in lesbians or trans folk, and your third blank seems to be some kind of completely off the wall attempt to add momentum to your argument. In that case, you are implying that I may as well have said that straight cis men see black men, lesbians, or trans folk as sex objects, which is an egregious misrepresentation of what I said. In any case, none of this is at all relevant, as none of it is what I said -- you are putting words into my mouth in order to attack me for what I didn't say, but rather what you imagine I might have said. You are attacking me for what you are imagining, so your "examples" are a creation of your mind and not mine. Misquoting (which is exactly what you are doing here) and attacking someone for what your misquotation implies they said is unacceptable and is a bannable offense -- it is unacceptable to criticize someone for what they didn't say (consider this your first and last official warning against misquoting others). In addition, I did not say that straight cis men are bad, I said they freak me out which is a statement about how my mind is interpreting things, and not about how things are (there are many people who would legitimately say "clowns freak me out"). I also clearly said that many straight cis men are perfect gentlemen, which is absolutely true. I was also questioning my feelings
    and not making negative statements about them. I also said, "I know for a fact that generalizations are pretty much never correct." No, we will NOT agree to disagree about what you imagined I might have said, but never actually said. If you are going to criticize someone for what they said, you will quote precisely what they actually said and base your criticism entirely and exclusively on their words and their words alone. Criticise anyone for what you imagine they might have said, or what you read into what they said, and you will find yourself banned from this site.

    Audry Leigh
     
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  8. MissX

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    what a ridiculous thing to say. Everyone here wants and fights For acceptance in some way or another and one of those people comes out with this judgemental crap.
     
  9. Bakabakabaka

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    Hi audrey not that it matters what someone like me thinks but i think you jumped the gun a bit there and threatening dream for what you say is a misquote (which so far as i can see isn't) is quite unfair in my opinion. I personally, am not comfortable with some of the generalizations in the post you made there. Quite a lot of those generalizations could be applied to cis women too but you singled out cis men. Some men can be immature and some Women can be .. women do see men as sex objects too ... that's not a specifically male thing. Hopefully i won't get banned for saying so but I think you are being a little unfair and your comments do kind of offend me. dream never even implied you had a racial bias. Dream simply pointed out that under a different guise your post would have been dogpiled with angry people but since it's cis white het men it's ok. I don't wish to offend you but I rationally and calmly re-read this whole thread and i do believe that you might be jumping down dream's throat a tad bit hard because she did have a good point and i do believe i have the same interpretation of your post and am rather offended by it.
     
    #9 Bakabakabaka, Nov 30, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  10. Adora/ble

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    I had initially not intended to keep commenting here, because some of the stuff said and touched on are triggers for me. However, I feel well enough to mayhaps give an input.
    And before I do; I am not taking sides. I can understand where Audry is coming from completely. I can also understand dream and the point of Baka.

    However.
    There is a huge problem in comparing problematic behaviour of cis hetero-normative men with cis women and/or cis, heteronormative men who are not white. The concept of intersectionality seeks to explore and explain these different levels.
    I will back up my claims with data as I can link it.

    Please, before you read all the sources I link, take care. This is a trigger warning. Many of these points, papers and articles will cover violence of various natures.

    Here go the points now;

    I understand Audry really well, because as much as society likes to deflect, the demographic who do the most harm, cause violence and murder are not those with mental issues, but men.

    (One study to back that upm but you will find way more: https://www.heuni.fi/material/attachments/heuni/projects/wd2vDSKcZ/Homicide_and_Gender.pdf)

    Society raises men to subscribe to a behaviour of violence and demeaning actions to prove themselves as strong. Infact, the notion of strength for men is highly toxic as it is portrayed by media, norms and role-models. Being emotionally shut in, resolving conflicts with shows of such "strengths" and the given entitlement of many men (especially white men) as they are preferred in the vast sum of roles creates a very volatile demographic.

    Audry, and I hope it is okey I name you here, as well as any other women or people actively suppressed and oppressed by those behavior patterns cannot see into the minds of other people.
    Hence, every man they do not know is a potential risk.

    "All men", but "not all men" is a common point of friction between cis heteronormative men and feminism and is often not sufficiently understood by those who do need to fear or are not actively oppressed by male toxic behaviour. That does not make it any less real.

    It is "potentially all men". This is my personal addendum to this, but I do not think we should fault Audry, any other woman or anyone afraid of men due to past experience, upbringing, etc for their fears. Because these fears are well justified, especially if you are not being read as a man who would fit into the norm of society. Every potential interaction with a man, becomes a risk for the sole reason that you do not know them.

    Given we are all individuals with our own personal struggles and issues, we should not judge anyone for choosing to distance themselves from people they read as cis, heteronormative men.

    Of course these reasons can be fueled by a person's own biases, but if a person fears the man as he is portrayed in society, they have good reason to.

    I am backing my arguments up with another link, which shows key points to violence against women: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/violence-against-women and how men are the main perpetrators.
    Some digging will yield similar if not worse findings for transgender people.

    So can one fault Audry for the fears she might have?
    Yea, some may be subject of discussion, but this forum, at least to me, is about safety and making sure others are safe. I am pretty sure Audrey knows well enough, like most of us, I wager, our shortcomings.

    Which brings me to my last point:

    There is no scientific empirical data that being a hetero-normative white man is in any way harmful to oneself. They are not oppressed by a system or another demographic.

    They may become oppressed if they are poor, develop a mental health issue, etc.

    If someone says that the way white, hetero-normative, neuro-typical men act is making them feel unsafe, uncomfortable or afraid, then they have every reason to.
     
    #10 Adora/ble, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:50 PM
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 11:55 PM
  11. Bakabakabaka

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    I'm going to need a while to read your arguement and sources to not misrepresent you and I have things to do but as long as you are ok with having a civil discussion about it then i would like to disagree. Just at a cursory glance of your first source the issue i can already see is that while the rate of male violence is indeed higher (which i wouldn't really dispute all that much) it's not women who are the target of most of it .. it's other men. Also i'm gonna make the assumption that you have included some sources about sexual violence being mostly towards women and i'm very much inclined at least point out to you before I formulate my response (will probably be later or tommorow) that due to the mindset of society at the moment sexual violence in men is MASSIVELY under reported due to the police system being HEAVILY biased in domestic violence cases and society as a whole being VERY much stacked against men. Just for context I do consider myself Trans (even though i don't really wish to transition at least for the moment) and so it is not comming from a biase towards mens issues but rather my opinion after studying this issue for quite a while. Also there are many many heads to that monster of a statement (talking in terms of lot's of different points to tackle) looking at it this is going to take me a while. That is only if it's not going to trigger you too much for me to post a fully cogent reply.
     
    #11 Bakabakabaka, Dec 3, 2019 at 2:15 AM
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 5:53 AM
  12. Sinre

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    As a white male I personally find a lot of these comments offensive. I don’t even get to the point where I am cis and bi. I’m too offended to.

    I feel sorry for any white male who some of you encounter. Especially where you essentially have decided they’re cis and straight just by looking at them, or, which is much better, deciding to be apprehensive about them the moment you discover they’re cis and straight.

    I love how you are predicating how you treat people by their gender and sexuality. Bravo.

    It’s as bad as anyone who has ever discriminated against you.

    What hypocrisy.
     
  13. Bakabakabaka

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    Yeah and mega hypocrisy vibes from a community that is supposed to be about getting rid of discrimination to say that it's essentially ok to discriminate, make assumptions of and generalize against those cis white males. (At the very least that is how SOME elements of the posts on this particular thread can come across) (im leaving it open to you guys to reply if you don't want your thoughts to be construed that way). Imagine if i found some data one day that said that gay men were the top rapists towards men (i haven't looked it up but could be true) are you guys going to say it's ok to discriminate against gay men and it's ok to be uncomfortable in the presence of gay men because they will rape me? I imagine in that case i would be called a biggot and all that. PS: if you want a discussion then we can keep it civil but if you don't and it is triggering you or whatnot im perfectly happy with just butting out of the thread and not replying. Christmas decorations to put up and all.
     
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    #13 Bakabakabaka, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:56 AM
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 6:02 AM
  14. Corvus
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    My name hasn't been explicitly mentioned but as a contributor to this thread I would like to say that if anything I said in my post has caused pain or offence I offer my apologies.
    I would also like to clarify my earlier point; when I wrote my previous reply I thought the last paragraph explained my meaning but re-reading it I feel like it implies a bigger blanket statement than I intended.

    My "problem" is not with straight cis men per se, but with straight cis men in a group setting (hence the "judge them individually" and mention of locker rooms). One on one I can at the very least a decently pleasant conversation with most guys and there's quite a few I actually like to socialise with but so far in my 34 years of existence I can count on my fingers the amount of decent guys who didn't devolve into a "dude bro" when more men entered the conversation. I understand the peer pressure and I myself have done it on occasion with my classmates in high school or my co-workers as a young adult, just because I wanted to fit in. It's still toxic.

    Now you can say that that generalisation is no less discriminatory and you might be right but such has been my experience to date, and maybe I will be proven wrong soon (I hope so) but that's the situation as it stands right now.
     
  15. Dreamsexual
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    I sympathise Corvus, I think many of us have had grim experiences with blokes.

    But to be fair, I have found the same holds true for most folk when they 'get together', not just cis het men (or white folk). Whenever you are on the outside, and the 'insiders' are in a gang, tribalism and pack mentality can kick in.

    I've seen it in terms of religion, sexuality, gender, ethnicity, class, education, sports teams and you name it .... Humans are prone to us/them thinking regardless of what's between our legs, our skin colour, or who we choose to sleep with. IMHO, anyway.

    It is, perhaps, more frightening when men start ganging up then women, though, because of the obvious size and capability for violence difference. Maybe that's why we see the 'cis het men' threat more than in other groups given that most of us here are going to be outside that group. I'm not convinced they (cis het males) are more 'bad' than other groups, but I am convinced that a group of men wanting to hurt you is usually a greater threat than a group of women. Usually, but by no means always.

    I probably shouldn't have said anything else here, but oh well.
     
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  16. Corvus
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    I definitely get your point and by the unwritten law that in a group setting majority rules most of the groups I've been affiliated with (be it work settings, sports, even school) there has always been a lot of gender segregation so even if there was someone of a different religion, race or every now and then, gender) in said groups, it was still a white male (and with the number of comments about "hot chicks" that always abound, straight) dominated group so I can only talk about what I've experienced.
    I never stated (or at least not intentionally) that said group was worse than another, just that I tend to feel uncomfortable with the behaviour on display and the topics approached).

    I'm sure women can be just as petty, vindictive and stupid as men can but I've never really been in a women's locker room so that's not part of my experience and therefore not for me to comment on :) 

    And yes, I was always a bit of an outsider in those groups, as were black people and gays (still lots of racism and homophobia in Portugal sadly) which ended up being the people I connected to the most even though I was a white guy (or thought I was a guy, at the time), which leaves the majority of the group straight and male.

    My experience with groups of women have been entirely different, but again, different settings.

    My point is, I was called out on my prejudice, I'm acknowledging it and apologising for it; just wanted to make sure I am apologising for what I meant to say (and sadly my views won't change overnight...it'll take some reflecting upon) and not for what it might have sounded like I meant.

    Not sure if any of this makes any sense but here it is.
     
  17. Sinre

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    You made perfect sense to me. *throws an e-hug*
     
  18. Corvus
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    Thank you, and again, I'm sorry for causing you pain...it really wasn't my intention.
     
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  19. Dreamsexual
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    I honestly don't think it was ever anyone's intention here :) 

    But conflicts happen. I hate them, I wish they didn't, and I don't know how to handle them. But for some horrible reason not everyone is me, lol :)  I don't seem to think precisely like other people, and that kinda freaks me out, tbh. But I'm sure no one means any real harm to anyone.
     
  20. Corvus
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    And that, my dear, is one of the reasons you are such an asset to our family. Sometimes it's only too easy to get stuck in the same train of thought you've always had and it's good to have someone who is able to offer an alternative view.
     
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