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Narcissistic Personality Disorder, what is a Narc?

Discussion in 'Dealing with Narcissistic People' started by AudryLeigh, Oct 24, 2019.  |  Print Topic

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  1. AudryLeigh
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    What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

    Many people who come to this site are knowingly or unknowingly dealing with a Narcissistic parent or partner. People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (often referred to as Narcs) are potentially very dangerous people. At best they are difficult to live around, at the worst they can be a threat to another person’s life. If you are in any kind of relationship where the other person is abusive, especially verbally abusive, it is important to know whether or not they suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), because none of the “normal” strategies for dealing with abuse will work with them. Following are some excerpts from an article by Melinda Smith, M.A., which was last updated in June of 2019.

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    What is narcissistic personality disorder?
    The word narcissism gets tossed around a lot in our selfie-obsessed, celebrity-driven culture, often to describe someone who seems excessively vain or full of themselves. But in psychological terms, narcissism doesn’t mean self-love—at least not of a genuine sort. It’s more accurate to say that people with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) are in love with an idealized, grandiose image of themselves. And they’re in love with this inflated self-image precisely because it allows them to avoid deep feelings of insecurity. But propping up their delusions of grandeur takes a lot of work—and that’s where the dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors come in.

    Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding. This way of thinking and behaving surfaces in every area of the narcissist’s life: from work and friendships to family and love relationships.

    People with narcissistic personality disorder are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it’s causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What’s more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks. For the people in the narcissist’s life, it’s often easier just to go along with their demands to avoid the coldness and rages.

    Grandiose sense of self-importance
    Grandiosity is the defining characteristic of narcissism. More than just arrogance or vanity, grandiosity is an unrealistic sense of superiority. Narcissists believe they are unique or “special” and can only be understood by other special people. What’s more, they are too good for anything average or ordinary. They only want to associate and be associated with other high-status people, places, and things.

    Narcissists also believe that they’re better than everyone else and expect recognition as such—even when they’ve done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. And when they talk about work or relationships, all you’ll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. They are the undisputed star and everyone else is at best a bit player.

    Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur
    Since reality doesn’t support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage, so those around the narcissist learn to tread carefully around their denial of reality.

    Needs constant praise and admiration
    A narcissist’s sense of superiority is like a balloon that gradually loses air without a steady stream of applause and recognition to keep it inflated. The occasional compliment is not enough. Narcissists need constant food for their ego, so they surround themselves with people who are willing to cater to their obsessive craving for affirmation. These relationships are very one-sided. It’s all about what the admirer can do for the narcissist, never the other way around. And if there is ever an interruption or diminishment in the admirer’s attention and praise, the narcissist treats it as a betrayal.

    Sense of entitlement
    Because they consider themselves special, narcissists expect favorable treatment as their due. They truly believe that whatever they want, they should get. They also expect the people around them to automatically comply with their every wish and whim. That is their only value. If you don’t anticipate and meet their every need, then you’re useless. And if you have the nerve to defy their will or “selfishly” ask for something in return, prepare yourself for aggression, outrage, or the cold shoulder.

    Exploits others without guilt or shame
    Narcissists never develop the ability to identify with the feelings of others—to put themselves in other people’s shoes. In other words, they lack empathy. In many ways, they view the people in their lives as objects—there to serve their needs. As a consequence, they don’t think twice about taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Sometimes this interpersonal exploitation is malicious, but often it is simply oblivious. Narcissists simply don’t think about how their behavior affects others. And if you point it out, they still won’t truly get it. The only thing they understand is their own needs.

    Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others
    Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line.

    Don’t fall for the fantasy
    Narcissists can be very magnetic and charming. They are very good at creating a fantastical, flattering self-image that draw us in. We’re attracted to their apparent confidence and lofty dreams—and the shakier our own self-esteem, the more seductive the allure. It’s easy to get caught up in their web, thinking that they will fulfill our longing to feel more important, more alive. But it’s just a fantasy, and a costly one at that.

    Your needs won’t be fulfilled (or even recognized). It’s important to remember that narcissists aren’t looking for partners; they’re looking for obedient admirers. Your sole value to the narcissist is as someone who can tell them how great they are to prop up their insatiable ego. Your desires and feelings don’t count.

    Look at the way the narcissist treats others. If the narcissist lies, manipulates, hurts, and disrespects others, he or she will eventually treat you the same way. Don’t fall for the fantasy that you’re different and will be spared.

    Focus on your own dreams. Instead of losing yourself in the narcissist’s delusions, focus on the things you want for yourself. What do you want to change in your life? What gifts would you like to develop? What fantasies do you need to give up in order to create a more fulfilling reality?

    Set healthy boundaries
    Healthy relationships are based on mutual respect and caring. But narcissists aren’t capable of true reciprocity in their relationships. It isn’t just that they’re not willing; they truly aren’t able. They don’t see you. They don’t hear you. They don’t recognize you as someone who exists outside of their own needs. Because of this, narcissists regularly violate the boundaries of others. What’s more, they do so with an absolute sense of entitlement.

    Narcissists think nothing of going through or borrowing your possessions without asking, snooping through your mail and personal correspondence, eavesdropping on conversations, barging in without an invitation, stealing your ideas, and giving you unwanted opinions and advice. They may even tell you what to think and feel. It’s important to recognize these violations for what they are, so you can begin to create healthier boundaries where your needs are respected.

    Don’t take things personally
    To protect themselves from feelings of inferiority and shame, narcissists must always deny their shortcomings, cruelties, and mistakes. Often, they will do so by projecting their own faults on to others. It’s very upsetting to get blamed for something that’s not your fault or be characterized with negative traits you don’t possess. But as difficult as it may be, try not to take it personally. It really isn’t about you.

    Don’t buy into the narcissist’s version of who you are. Narcissists don’t live in reality, and that includes their views of other people. Don’t let their shame and blame game undermine your self-esteem. Refuse to accept undeserved responsibility, blame, or criticism. That negativity is the narcissist’s to keep.

    Don’t argue with a narcissist. When attacked, the natural instinct is to defend yourself and prove the narcissist wrong. But no matter how rational you are or how sound your argument, he or she is unlikely to hear you. And arguing the point may escalate the situation in a very unpleasant way. Don’t waste your breath. Simply tell the narcissist you disagree with their assessment, then move on.

    Know yourself. The best defense against the insults and projections of the narcissist is a strong sense of self. When you know your own strengths and weaknesses, it’s easier to reject any unfair criticisms leveled against you.

    Let go of the need for approval. It’s important to detach from the narcissist’s opinion and any desire to please or appease them at the expense of yourself. You need to be okay with knowing the truth about yourself, even if the narcissist sees the situation differently.

    Look for support and purpose elsewhere
    Learn what healthy relationships look and feel like. If you come from a narcissistic family, you may not have a very good sense of what a healthy give-and-take relationship is. The narcissistic pattern of dysfunction may feel comfortable to you. Just remind yourself that as familiar as it feels, it also makes you feel bad. In a reciprocal relationship, you will feel respected, listened to, and free to be yourself.

    Spend time with people who give you an honest reflection of who you are. In order to maintain perspective and avoid buying into the narcissist’s distortions, it’s important to spend time with people who know you as you really are and validate your thoughts and feelings.

    Make new friendships, if necessary, outside the narcissist’s orbit. Some narcissists isolate the people in their lives in order to better control them. If this is your situation, you’ll need to invest time into rebuilding lapsed friendships or cultivating new relationships.

    Look for meaning and purpose in work, volunteering, and hobbies. Instead of looking to the narcissist to make you feel good about yourself, pursue meaningful activities that make use of your talents and allow you to contribute.

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    (The above is slightly edited by the removal of a couple of paragraphs, irrelevant to this post. Also, it is I think, a rather good description/explanation of NPD, but it isn't a touchstone. If you think you have a Narc in your life, but something about the description above doesn't fit, let's talk about it here. We're not authorities, but we can find other information, and listen to other people's ideas and experiences and figure some things out.)

    In addition to the above, it is important to note that narcissists cannot stand to lose. If you have been living with a narcissistic parent, and you finally reach the age of 18 and move out, the Narc will do everything in their power to keep you under their control. People who have been victimized by Narcs often describe behavior by the Narc referred to as “Hovering,” which is the use of crafty means to suck the person back into their sphere of influence. For example, “Well let’s at least just have coffee sometime -- I miss you.” The “I miss you” is total BS. Their one and only objective is to get you where they can use their deceptive techniques to gain your sympathy and reverse your course of action (to get you to move back in with them, for example, where they can continue to use you to bolster their ego. Remember, this is NOT about you! They don’t give a damn about you, your mental health, what their abuses might be doing to you, even whether or not they are ruining the rest of your life -- it’s never at all about you, it’s entirely and only about them.


    Narcissists are incredibly skillful liars. The usually have no conscience, so they don’t see lying as being wrong. Not seeing it as wrong leaves them free to tell you anything they think might win your sympathy, or make you feel badly about the way you treated them. “You know you broke your mom’s and my hearts when you moved out. How could you do such a thing to people who loved you and cared for you your entire life?” They (the Narc) never loved you, the only love they know is love of themselves. Even your life is meaningless to them. If you died tomorrow, the only loss they’d feel is the loss of someone to feed their ego. If you haven’t experienced it, or recognized it, it’s hard to believe that anyone could be so callous, could care absolutely nothing about others feelings and needs, hard to believe that anyone could say what they say and have it be a total and absolute lie, intended to manipulate your feelings and emotions. They seem so incredibly sincere that even if you know their game, it’s hard not to believe them. “Oh, they’re being so sincere, they must have changed.” Not a chance. Narcissists NEVER change -- NPD is incurable.


    Narcs are such incredibly good liars that most psychiatrists, psychologists, and counselors will fail to spot them, so if you get them to go to a counseling session with you, your counselor is likely to side with them. They will convince anyone you know who they have access to that you’re the one who is damaging their relationship with them. They will have no qualms about going through your phone, reading your texts and emails, and collecting the phone numbers and addresses of your friends, and to check to see if you’ve been reaching out to anyone or if you have contacted Child Protective Services. They’d not flinch at a visit from CPS, they know they can lie their way through anything, but knowing in advance would give them a chance to go to work on you -- to intimidate you so that you don’t say the things you need to say (and that he needs you not to say).


    Perhaps the worst thing about Narcs is that they are so incredibly hard to get rid of. They really cannot lose, so they’ll keep coming back, trying to Hoover you back under their control. I know of about 16 cases where the person had to leave the state to amputate the Narc. A very good friend of mine changed her name and moved to my state to escape a Narc EX-husband. One woman commented to me once at a bar, “Sometimes ya just gotta shoot em.” Made me want to move away from her. She never did tell me how she’d amputated her EX-Narc. Anyway, Narcs are extremely hard to get out of your life, but it’s often an absolute necessity.


    This forum is here to help people learn about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, to provide support for those having to deal with it, for people to talk about their experiences (sometimes, telling your story and having it validated is a necessary step, because any good Narc will have you convinced that your version of things is all wrong -- so having knowledgeable people go “Yup, that’s a narc for ya,” can be crucial in your learning that it’s HIS version that’s all wrong). Anyway, feel free to post here and help this become a valuable resource for victims of Narcs, and anyone who needs or wants to know about them.


    Hugs,
    Audry Leigh
     
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  2. zen

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    Quote:

    "Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What’s more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks."

    We've recently witnessed this exact behavior on this site, and not all the victims have been back yet.
     
    #2 zen, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  3. john1010101
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    And in the Whitehouse I’m afraid. A dangerous situation considering they have access to that red button.
     
  4. Nina Zenik
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    As much as I get that people might want to vent about dealing with someone with NPD, some of the origional post kind of bothers me. I'll use the quoted paragraph as an example, since this is the main one I don't like. NPD is a Cluster B personality disorder- others in this category include Antisocial Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder. To me these are the most stigmatised of any mental health conditions. I regularly see 'psycho' used in relation to ASPD, which would be completely unnacceptable if that was literally any other mental illness.

    So first thing- NPD is not 'incurable'. It is difficult to treat, and is a lifelong diagnosis, but treatment is continually improving and if someone with NPD actually enters therapy (or their loved ones pursuade them to, or by court order, whatever) it can be treated and managed effectively just like any other mental illness.

    I get why someone who has experienced some kind of trauma with someone they believe to have NPD might think they are as this paragraph describes- in fact, perphaps the person they knew really was as described in that paragraph- but writing something like that in a post describing what NPD is (and remembering NPD is a scale ranging from mild to very severe) is in my opinion adding to an already highly developed stigma around it as a diagnosis. By saying 'NPD', you include people who have actually been diagnosed and are managing their condition, most of whom are just people like you and I who have their faults and are trying very hard to be better.

    So, secondly- people who have NPD, ASPD or any other cluster B disorder do not all have zero remorse, zero conscience and a complete incapacity to love anybody. I have literally never seen an accurate depiction of a cluster B disorder in the media, so perhaps it isn't suprising virtually everybody sees these diagnoses as alternate ways of saying someone has no heart or soul. That's what the media shows us. But you know what? Even people with severe ASPD (yes, the one associated with murderers and psychopaths) often love their family/very close friends/partners. Cluster B disorders are very centered around attatchment issues- people with NPD tend to have a severe fear of abandonment. Far from not caring if a loved one dies, a lot of people with NPD would be devastated to the point of being a suicide risk.

    Look, I'm not trying to say you should feel sympathetic toward someone like this in your life. In fact, if they aren't willing to seek help, definately don't comprimise your own wellbeing and remain in a situation with them. But can we not stigmatise an actual disorder that real life people are struggling to overcome? Even better, why not just use 'toxic people' for this purpose? Because people can be abusive and toxic without having a mental condition, you know.

    (PS I don't mean to offend anybody. This is just something I see a lot.)
     
  5. john1010101
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    I agree with most of what you say but one aspect of this question needs to be raised again and again. When those with anything near severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder attain positions of power either in industry, medicine, politics etc the dangers this presents to the general community are severe. This is a frequent problem due to the fact those with these characteristics, often without anything like a conscience, are able to walk over others to attain power.
    Having worked with and under too many of these individuals over the decades and having had to resort to extreme measures to prevent them crushing myself and colleagues I know how often their frequently high intelligence and skills at manipulating organisational structures can destroy lives.
    As a psychiatric social worker once warned me in this context “Sometimes you just have to face the fact a person is essentially more bad than mad”
    As has too often been the case over human history NPD has often been a necessary qualification for gaining and attaining political and ‘Royal’ power with disastrous consequences for millions.
    This may come across as uncaring but are we supposed to be sympathetic when dealing with a Stalin, Hitler or MacBeth?
    Actually MacBeth doesn’t belong in this category given he eventually was wracked with guilt and conscience.
     
    #5 john1010101, Mar 25, 2020 at 5:26 PM
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020 at 9:22 PM
  6. Nina Zenik
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    I get this too, and I do agree. Like I said, I don't mean to say you should feel sympathetic to someone who is being a horrible person. It's just that, of the people with personality disorders, only a tiny percentage are the very extreme stereotype that almost everyone describes online, the 'evil abuser/dictator/generally terrible human' stereotype. And the stereotype often omits certain aspects of the disorder (I mean, who cares about the actual psychology? Not many people, seemingly). But the stereotype is all a lot of people know, so if most people find out someone has NPD, that's what they will think of that person.

    And it's wrong. The stereotype is basically a description of a monster. It reads like the description of a movie/storybook villain, and it reads as though it's a description of someone's whole personality. But you don't need to have every single behavioural symptom at its absolute extreme to have the disorder. Nobody is just a personification of a disorder. Having a personality disorder doesn't mean your whole personality is a disorder and your purpose in life is to make other people sad.

    So I guess that's my problem with the way it's talked about. It's not that I'm saying some genuinely very bad people don't have the disorder, because they do. Often the experiences that make bad people also help develop personality disorders, and personality disorders sometimes make you more prone to do bad things, so yes, obviously. I just wish things about the extreme, stereotype NPD would stop shoving everyone with NPD into the same category.

    Interesting what you say about positions of power. I think the thing is that not all the traits that go with 'personality disorders' are actually bad traits unless they are causing a problem. For example, 'grandiose sense of self-importance' is a trait of NPD. That could involve exaggerating your achievements, believing you deserve a promotion, being very ambitious and believing you deserve to realise those ambitions. Those on their own aren't bad traits in business. You get stuff by believing you deserve it, not by talking yourself down. So 'grandiose sense of self-importance' might be a useful trait if you're trying to win a business deal. Ruthlessness (though with NPD it's usually more obliviousness to lack of conscience- most would be shocked if you told them they had upset/offended you, wouldn't even have realised) isn't a bad trait in a leader, either. Leaders sometimes have to make hard decisions, so sometimes might have to put conscience aside. But those two traits wouldn't win you many friends in interpersonal relationships. Someone without NPD could use those traits in situations appropriate to them and 'switch them off' in others. Someone with NPD could not 'switch them off', so may be an excellent leader/businessperson but be rubbish at relationships with employees.

    But then, seeing as the 'can you switch the traits off' thing is the most solid way of knowing if someone has a personality disorder, how do you really know, unless you know them intimately? Plus, only a psychologist is qualified to actually say for certain. Personality disorders are pretty rare, too- NPD is only 1% (though I live in the middle of nowhere so everyone probably knows more people than me but let's not mention that). It's pretty rare. But some people think they know dozens of people with it? Hence why 'toxic people' seems better, since those people might just be little gits.
     
  7. AudryLeigh
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    Hey Nina,

    I have known several, all diagnosed, and all of whom fit the hideous monster category. All but one have been put in institutions for the criminally insane by the courts. Granted, they aren't all that dangerous -- as long as they are getting their way, but when things start to go against them they seem to always get worse and worse. The ones I have known were all fine and no one suspected there was anything abnormal about them, until their wives asked for a divorce, or their child came out as transsexual and got suicidal when daddy dearest got heavy handed with them about it. Then, in every case, things got really ugly really fast. In the case of the transsexual child, the child disappeared without a trace and has never been located -- too young to have successfully run away and succeeded at surviving on his own (only 13), but the cops have him listed as a runaway. Keep them happy and they're model citizens, but there are more of them out there than even medical science knows, they're just really good at manipulating people so they stay happy. They are time bombs, but in most cases, the clock never gets started. Once they have been triggered, I've not heard of a single one who was able to manage their symptoms. Please don't fall into the thinking that this personality disorder is like others, it's not. I'm dealing with one right now -- my (grown) daughter's ex- partner. For four months now he's been stalking her, has gone as far as holding a knife to her throat, and is threatening to kill her fiance and me (for brainwashing her and turning her against him). The cops have attempted to track him with dogs and bait him into situations where they can arrest him, and though they have come within minutes of getting him, still he evades them. These people are frighteningly good at getting away with what they do. The problem is with labeling every unmanageable asshole as a narcissist. Those who really are, genuinely are dangerous people.

    Sincerely,
    Audry Leigh
     
  8. john1010101
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    Your presumption those making comment here have only a shallow understanding of the matter, either lacking academic and/or clinical qualifications in psychology/psychiatry and/or extensive experience dealing with these people is unjustified - a mere presumption.
    I will take this opportunity to raise another topic your response ignores.
    There's a significant percentage of formally qualified psychologists and psychiatrists who themselves are classic examples of NPD and other ( as you refer to them) ’toxic’ mental conditions- many of them working for fundamentalist Christian groups running ‘cure by prayer’ retreats for gay and lesbian ‘sinners’.
     
    #8 john1010101, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:30 AM
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020 at 2:36 AM
  9. Nina Zenik
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    Definately agree- this is what I hate and what a lot of people I know in real life do.

    Sorry if this is what it sounded like- I went into talking about it more generally there, it wasn't supposed to be directed at anyone in this thread. More people I know in real life.

    I should probably say, someone very dear to me is diagnosed with ASPD. I know a few people with other cluster B disorders through being involved in their therapy etc. So I admit my view is a bit biased, because of how I've seen people in real life react about it. I know there are also serial killers diagnosed with ASPD, but if anyone I've known in real life has heard of it, that's all they know about. Otherwise, if they google it, they see it's the one associated with psychopathy and that's what they assume it is. People can be very nasty about it.

    Obviously, I know you're not wrong that some very bad people have NPD. Same with ASPD. I get why this thread exists, I really do. I guess it's just something that's a very personal issue to me, so every time I see something about it online, I feel the need to add something of my own thoughts. I think maybe it comes from the fact I can't argue the point with everyone who thinks having ASPD makes you a psychopath in real life, so I whenever I see these disorders online, I want to say something about it.

    So please don't be offended by me :)  It's not really about anyone in this thread. It's more my personal issue with this stuff.
     
  10. john1010101
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    I certainly don’t think everyone with ASPD is a psychopath but my experience working on the security side of a large national Australian Gov’t organisation (please don’t ask) taught me there was an atypically high percentage in management within that organisation and within the 57 other gov’t (and 3 private) organisations we dealt with daily.
    The competitive nature of the struggle to attain and hold senior management positions acts almost like a filtering process too frequently seeing a higher proportion of those with psychopathic tendencies, not just ASPD, percolate ( as we say in Australia) to the top of the shit heap.
    That a high percentage of these happen to hold M BA degrees may or may not be a connection worthy of closer scrutiny. (Wandering off topic here but I'm of the opinion you can put an intelligent individual through an M BA degree and a raving idiot emerges from the other end speaking a prolix and obscure language few others can decode.)

    I don’t want however to give an impression of thinking the number of those with ASPD etc is a modern phenomena. Even a cursory familiarity with our species history tells us there appears to be a tribal survival value in having such individuals organise the ‘troops’. Arthur Koestler’s ‘The Ghost in The Machine’ throws a spotlight on this question. I suggest his central thesis is as yet to be refuted. Somehow I wish it could be as the world would be a far less scary place.

    I’m tempted to bring the subject of President Trump into this discussion but such would probably both take us far off topic and trigger a number of politically biased temper tantrums worth avoiding.
     
    #10 john1010101, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:53 PM
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020 at 3:17 PM
  11. AudryLeigh
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    Amen
     
  12. Nina Zenik
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    I feel like nothing that relates Trump to this topic is going to be particuarly complimentary to him, and personally I am... not very fond of Trump. Also, I'm British, so American politics is unlikely to bother me too much. But who knows, there might be some Trump fans lurking somewhere around here.

    I haven't read 'The Ghost in the Machine', but it looks interesting. I've added it to my TBR list (I have a huge TBR list and I am still always trying to find more to go on it).

    I know there are studies which actually show there are a higher percentage of people with 'psychopathic' traits in high up business positions (I don't quite remember now, but I think it might have been a study of CEOs). I think a higher percentage of doctors and lawyers too. And chefs. I love that one. Psychopathic chefs. I mean, those are high stress jobs, so it would make sense they would suit someone with ASPD traits, based on low arousal theory.

    I think maybe there's a difference in which ASPD traits are shown in senior businesspeople vs what the most common ASPD traits are, too. I don't know about other countries, but in the UK, of the seven criteria (three must apply), two are 'being continously irresponsible' and 'being impulsive and incapable of planning ahead'. Those two seem pretty common from the people I know. It gets misdiagnosed as ADHD. But those aren't traits which the articles I've read specified when talking about which traits were common in businesspeople. Though it was referred to there as 'psychopathy', which is supposed to be extreme ASPD but from usage is a separate kind of thing involving only some ASPD traits. I know movies, books etc featuring 'psychopaths' almost never have those two traits, and most people's idea of what a psychopath is doesn't involve those kind of traits, either. So it would make sense to have that distinction. Nothing and nobody seems to agree on what the distinction is, though. But I can say that if the people with ASPD I know had to run the country, I'd give it thirteen days before at least half country had imploded :D 

    Also, I really want to ask about the Australian government security thing. Especially because you said not to. Is this the secret service? My mental image of you is now James Bond but as a nun because I'm pretty sure there was a nun on your profile pic.
     
  13. john1010101
    Old Hag

    john1010101 Geriatric Hippy
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    I find talking about that part of my work history somewhat disturbing as it brings back traumatic memories I no longer want to regurgitate, also I’m still subject to The Official Secrets Act.

    As to the Secret Service, like the US there are more than a few branches of Gov’t the public often think of as the Secret Service. On the other hand there are mulitple branches of Gov’t carrying out this kind of activity, some of them that would really surprise a number of Australians. Essentially anyone who tells you you’re paranoid because you imagine Big Brother is watching you is on the wrong track.

    James Bond as nun? No, I’ve only been in drag once in my life as Lady Bracknell at a 21st birthday party. The nun thing came from my early teenage years when I was studying the pipe organ at a Catholic Cathedral and gay friends started calling me Sister Joan. It stuck, maybe due to the life long fight I’ve had with fundamentalist and other branches of Christianity?
     
    #13 john1010101, Mar 28, 2020 at 5:29 PM
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020 at 2:52 AM

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