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Gay Going to hell?

Discussion in 'Questioning & General LGBT' started by BlazeTheDog, Aug 6, 2019.  |  Print Topic

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  1. Carlita
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    Things like this do take a lot of courage and reflection. I wouldn't listen to what people say.

    For example, the Bible mentions homosexuality in regards to lust. When you're with the boy you love, it would not be lust. So, your act isn't the same as the bibles intent.

    Another is in BC they knew nothing about sexual orientation. Most Christians aren't Jewish or Roman. Not all speak either language, add Greek to that. A lot don't know and live the culture which isn't separated from knowing the language. Then translations. Then interpretations.

    My ex girlfriend and her fiance are gay. She is a Christian, father Catholic and mother non denominational. Right now they are looking for churches that accepts them, bless their marriage, and a minister to be their spiritual counselor.

    And, they are gay. She says God loves her just as she is. She said that god saved her and her color, orientation, etc is not a barrier to that salvation. She basically wants to get to a point we're she is proud, bold, Christian And gay.

    There are many ways God loves you. He isn't any other person. He isn't a stranger. From what I notice from my friend God loves ALL people.

    Don't listen to others. Pray. Read your Bible if that's your thing. Spend time with other gay Christians. Be yourself.

    No person is god.
     
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    #21 Carlita, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:41 PM
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 3:33 PM
  2. Doglover44

    Doglover44 Reliable Contributor
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    I hear the verse a lot a man should not lay with another nor a woman with another woman What does that mean is it talking about being gay or have another meaning ?
     
  3. AudryLeigh
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    You're not quoting it accurately.
    Leviticus 18:22You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.Leviticus 20:13If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination;they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.To interpret these passages of Leviticus, it’s important to know that this book of the Bible focuses on ritual purity for the Israelites, and setting guidelines for the Israelites to distinguish themselves from their pagan neighbors, the Egyptians and Canaanites, who lived in the lands before theywere settled by the Jews. This is shown in Leviticus Chapters 18 and 20 by three specific scripturepassages (Leviticus 18:2-3, 18:24 and 20:23) that state that the Israelites should never do what the Egyptians and Canaanites did. (Miner & Connoley, pg.10) Biblical historians tell us that the Canaanite religions (whichsurrounded the Israelites at the time Leviticus was written) often included fertility rites consisting of sexual rituals in their temples. Sex with temple prostitutes, family members, and homosexual sex was performed at the Canaanite temples and thought to bring good luck to help crop and livestock production. (Miner &Connoley, pg. 11).To Bible readers of today, the word “abomination” conjures up disgust, horror,or evil, but to theancient Hebrews the word we translate as “abomination” simply meant unclean, taboo, or forbidden. The Old Testament uses the word “abomination” in reference to numerousthings that were forbidden for the ancient Israelites, manyof which make little or nosense to us today. For example, the Bible declares it an “abomination” to sow a field with two different kinds of seeds, or to weave a cloth from two different kinds of fibers (Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11). It also uses the word “abomination” in Leviticus 11 in reference to a long list of foods that the Israelites were forbidden to eat, including shrimp, crab, pork, rabbitandmany kinds ofbirds.(Helminiak, pg. 58)In discussing the Levitical texts that declare it an “abomination” for a manto “lie with a male as with a woman,” Jack Rogers points out that all these texts were concerned with “ritual purity” and were intended to distinguish Israel from itspagan neighbors. (Rogers, pg. 69; Helminiak, pg. 58) Rogers sets this concern over andagainst the teachings of Jesus, who is concerned not with ritual purity, but with purity of the heart (Matthew 15:10-20). (Rogers, pgs. 68-69; Brownson, pg. 42). It is difficult to recapture the meaning of “clean” and “unclean,” “pure” and “impure,” as it was viewed in ancient Israel. (Helminiak, pg. 57)The ancient Hebrew people had very particular ideas about man and woman in relation to purity laws. Men were not allowed to touch women during menstruation (Leviticus 15:19). Fora man to have sex with another man was to mix and confuse the standards of maleness and femaleness, and go against the accepted gender roles anddisrupt the ideal order of things and thus was unclean, taboo or forbidden. It was against the purity laws and was therefore, bydefinition, an “abomination.” (Helminiak, pg.58) The predominant topic of the Book of Leviticus was holiness and Chapters 17-27 are instructions from priests to thepeople of Israel. (Dwyer, pg.24) If the Israelites did not follow these rules,-7-they would not be holy and according to their ancient views, a consequence of not being holy would be the loss of the land that was being gifted by God.(Dwyer, pg.25) Keeping the land given to them by God was an enormous priority and that’s part of the reason that the penalty of death was attached to breaking purity laws as written inLeviticus 20:13.In addition, the growth in the number of people withinthe Israelitecommunitywas crucial to the survival of Israel. (Dwyer, pg.30) Hartley argues that this is one of the chief reasons for these rules about sex and sexuality. Thesurvival of the nation of Israel was at stake if it did not reproduce in appropriate numbers. (Dwyer, pg.30, citing Hartley, pgs.298-299) Theandrocentric (male-centered) mentality of the time and the cultural and societal need to increase the population of God’s chosen people led the priestly authors of Leviticus to want to control women’s reproductive capabilities, as well as to protect “the seed,” thereby increasing procreation. (Dwyer, pg. 31,citing Cooper &Scholz, pg. 38) Again, this may have been why the authorsdecided to attach the death penalty to what could be seen as men wasting their “seed.” For a man to act as a woman, and to act in a manner that did not keepthe power-center in the man, would be shameful. This action would bringhumiliation not only upon the man but on Jewish society and would interfere with how power was structured and understood. This type of behavior would challengethe patriarchal system that existed in that society and culture.(Dwyer, pg. 29)

    Sorry, that's a cut and paste, so run-together in places.

    So clearly, those statements were not as damming as they appear, and clearly they were applied to a certain, relatively small group of people, at a particular time in history. This is not ancient Israel, and no one any longer is trying desperately to differentiate themselves from the Egyptians or the Canaanites, these verses seem to have outlived their relevancy -- that is, today they are meaningless.

    Hugs,
    Audry Leigh
     
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  4. Kahlan

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    It should be noted that women are completely off the hook...:p 
     
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  5. KiraRyu
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    After reading through this whole thread, it reminded me of a ted talks video that I watched recently and with the debate going on I just had to share a link to it. For me it clarifies alot on this subject.

    Feel free to watch it if you want and to interpret it how you feel you need to.
    I thought it was very comforting.

    Kira~
     
  6. Montana Meredith
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    I must admit I agree with Audry on this conversation...And if there really is a "hell" we aren't going to it.By a long run.
     
  7. Lioness
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    Complex topic, that one (not to mention one where you get at least 20 different opinions if you ask 10 different people ;) ), but I try to keep this concise:

    Gods loves everyone. So much so that we've been given freedom, which means we can accept or reject His love - we're not puppets or robots.
    Our choices in life - the good and the bad ones - are preparation of the soul for that final, irrevocable choice:
    Do we want to be eternally with or without God, who is ultimately the sole source of our happiness?

    That's the choice between heaven and hell, and in the end it is everyone's own and not decided by anyone else (see my signature;) ) nor by things you cannot influence like being gay, straight, trans, whatever.
    Long story short: If you want to be with God, you will be. :) 
     
  8. Kahlan

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    Having been raised in a christian home, I do have a fair understanding of the bible, and especially on this topic due to my own challenges as a lesbian. I tend to study and research things that either apply to me, or are of interest to me. I think Audry's post above is pretty damn spectacular.

    The ted talk is, well, a nice idea. The guy said a lot of stuff that can be easily debated, since much of what he said sounds like his own personal interpretation, which, ironically is the point he was trying to make, but that is flawed logic imo. and opens us up to the same circular reasoning that many christians have. He kind of revealed his ignorance of christianity immediately with; "I've worked all my life to be a good, etc." Most christians don't believe they can work their way to heaven by being good, so yeah. The woman, however, had some very good points near the end about how inclusive the new testament teachings if Jesus are, and what I believe to be a spot on interpretation of his teachings..that the foremost commandment is loving God and others, and this love is unconditional as it pertains to our access to God and salvation by grace through Jesus, the door.

    From a purely logical standpoint, there is simply no way for humans to know for sure what happens when we die. The notions of reincarnation, heaven, hell, living eternally, or simply not existing at all anymore, are all either best guesses or faith based concepts. We choose to believe something, and we can feel pretty damn certain of those beliefs, and I'm not here to poo poo on anyone's ideas or thoughts on the matter, I have my own beliefs too, but when it comes to the idea of gays going to hell, understand that it's a belief that some, not all, christians have based on their specific interpretation of the bible, and that interpretation is most often a parroting of something someone else who they deem to be an authority, such as a pastor or minister, has taught them.
     
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  9. Jaysaurus
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    I respect people's right to have faith in God etc. but if (in the extremely unlikely event that) there is a vengeful God in this universe who would go-so-far as to give a damn about my sexual preferences, let me say this: I'm entirely happy that I'm going to hell. All my friends will be there anyway; His heaven sounds like it would be awful. Enjoy your life, respect and love others. You don't need faith to honor those tenets or a heaven to reap their rewards.
     
    #29 Jaysaurus, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:10 PM
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 12:14 PM
  10. Carlita
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    This is long, but I want to help.

    It's talking about spiritual impurity and lust.

    Leviticus 18:19-25:50 New International Version (NIV)

    19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the *uncleanness* of her monthly period.

    20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

    21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

    22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. (It means don't practice sexual promiscuity because any person having sex- straight, gay, bi, whoever- who acts in these ways are not clean and put a barrier to god.


    On the other hand, if you're with someone in sexual relations and you are not practicing in unclean ways (mindset), then, no, these verses do not apply to you. It's not the act in and of itself its referring to. It doesn't talk about homosexuality in committed relationships. The context is specific to being unclean and the mind sinful in any sexual act homosexual included.

    In other words, if you went around with every John, Jack, and Jim then yes, you'd be sinning. If you're in a committed relationship without lust (presumably inside marriage) then it isn't a sin. Interpretations are funny and each christian sees things that best connect with them.

    23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion....

    30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’”


    As a christian, as long as you keep yourself not defiled in your lord, you should be fine.

    Think of it like this. You have a butter knife. God says (making this up) though shall not kill with a knife. So, you set the knife aside thinking you can't use it. Then someone like me (and others) tell you you can use the knife just use it for butter not to kill.

    You'll have people every other place trying to tell you not to use THAT knife but use a different one (don't be gay, be straight) but they are BOTH knives.

    There is no difference in knifes-blue, green, orange, rainbowed-it's how you use it.

    Plus, butter knives aren't that sharp anyway.
     
    #30 Carlita, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:41 PM
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 3:46 PM
  11. AudryLeigh
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    Yet another translation of the Bible..... Ever played the game telephone?

    Hugs,
    Audry
     
  12. Carlita
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    I read a couple of bibles. They say the same. Only christians, I noticed, like to do the interpreting hip hop as if one word or mixed sentences will change the meaning (as if god's word changes if someone didn't put a period here or a word there in english, mind you).

    I'm glad I'm not christian; but, it does seem a bit silly arguing over translations. Half the people are probably not even Jewish, Roman, Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek. Don't speak the languages and don't live the culture.

    It's a foregone conclusion :( 
     
  13. AudryLeigh
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    I'm not talking about the various current translations, I'm talking about all the error and corruption, some intentional, that the original text has gone through during it's many, many translations, to get to what we read today. Statistically there can be only a tiny little fraction of it that didn't suffer the fate of all the messages in the telephone game.

    Hugs,
    Audry Leigh
     
  14. Carlita
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    I don't give it much thought. A lot of religious books have literal pot holes. The purpose is the message they convey. Many other religious get the power of analogy and stories. I don't know who else but I only know evangelist Christians to take it literal. I heard Sola scriptura is pretty new.

    Unless one finds errors in Jesus/word, what is the importance of the Bible having fault?

    Does it matter?
     
  15. ConfusedButHappy
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    Noticed this thread recently became active again :) 
    I've already responded to the original post but I'd like to add something.

    Now I'd like to clarify that I don't think anyone will be going to hell for not being heterosexual or cisgender.

    From a debate perspective - I don't think "Jesus loves everyone" or "Born this way" are valid arguments.

    1. Yes, Jesus loves everyone. Even sinners. Will everyone Jesus loves go to heaven? No. People who sin, by choosing to sin, choose not to be with God. Therefore, they won't be with God.

    2. Being born a certain way does not mean that way is not sinful. If I, due to hormones, experience lust or if I, due to genes, am prone to addiction... it is my job to overcome my sinful nature (with God's help). A huge part of Christianity is recognising that we are all born sinful, which is why we are baptised to be reborn.

    Me and my father were having a discussion recently, when he said "You know, a recent study has proven that there is no such thing as a gay gene" (No need to fact check, I'm pretty sure this is wrong anyway. Most studies indicate some level of contribution from both genes and upbringing).

    I asked him whether it mattered if gay people were born that way, or ended up gay due to a complex combination of their environment, upbringing and experiences. Both are equally valid. In fact, the majority of who I am today is the result of things that happened after I was born.

    I don't think we should (have to) rely on the born this way argument to justify homosexuality. Some people are born with horrible illnesses, does that make the illness any better? The born this way argument only makes scared parents run to conversion therapy faster.

    We should accept homosexuality as a society because there is nothing wrong with it. I don't have the right to stop two other people from building a healthy romantic relationship, just because it doesn't fit with my world view (note how I said healthy since some people attack this view by saying "well then you have to accept paedophiles and incest").

    I don't think homosexuality is a sin, because just like heterosexuality if expressed in a healthy/holy manner... it doesn't get between me and God. It doesn't hurt anyone. It is an act of love and that's enough.
     
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  16. ZagreusD
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    Peace and love to all of you. I'm a pagan. My God is gay.

    My idea of hell looks an awful lot like the Christian idea of heaven. I can't comprehend why anyone would ever want to go there. Is it because the only alternative is eternal suffering?

    I cannot conceive of a being who would create a world filled with diversity only to demand absolute hemogeny from the most complex creatures in it. The very idea strikes me as absurd.

    I require a God who is capable of greater compassion than I myself am capable of. I require a God who is capable of ethical reasoning more complex than my own.

    God didn't write the Bible. Humans wrote the Bible. God may have granted visions to humans, but those visions were interpreted within the context of a particular cultural paradigm. Even if those visions are made up of eternal cosmic truths, the interpretations are not.

    It seems silly to me to assume that everything God has to say to humanity was said over 2000 years ago. Or that a book written that long ago could contain an answer for every complex question that could possibly arise in an ever changing world.

    My God is complicated, loving, and most importantly present here and now. I think I was about 11 or 12 when I first recognized that God is more present in "the still, small voice," than in the rhetoric of intolerance and fear that was taught to me as a child.

    I have no fear of hell. I know what God is. I've walked with him, talked with him, made love with him. He is far too grand to be contained by me, and I am far too grand to be contained by a book. You could write down every detail of every moment of my life and every thought in my head and something vital would still be lost in the translation. How foolish to think that the truth of God can be found in a book, written by men 2000 years ago!

    Argue Biblical theology all you want. Those arguments aren't about God. Those are arguments about tradition. To what degree should the traditions of your family and culture dictate your behavior? If you want to know God's opinion on the matter don't look in a book, just ask her.
     
    #36 ZagreusD, Sep 14, 2019 at 6:32 PM
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019 at 6:34 PM
  17. Blossomheart1
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    Seriously, I so get where you're at. I am just coming to terms with my sexuality as a bisexual Christian myself. I'm going through tremendous guilt and shame, but I try to remind myself that guilt and shame isn't from God, and that He accepts me for who I am. I actually have found a way to cope with the guilt and shame, by singing praises to God from within my heart. It really does help distract me from it all.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2019 at 8:03 PM ---
    Wow, I seriously love this explanation!
     
    #37 Blossomheart1, Sep 14, 2019 at 8:01 PM
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  18. Lioness
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    That explanation is just excellent. :) 

    What you do with what you've been given is the important bit.
    Everyone has vices, some more serious than others, and we have to work to overcome them.
    What gets you closer to God is if your actions are guided by love ("to love is to will the good of the other" is a wonderful description I found recently).
     
  19. Bornunderabadsign
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    Not much I can add here but I will add this. The earliest concepts of afterlife are given in the Old Testament before the later Jews and Christians adopted beliefs from their neighbors and conquers the Romans. The after life or Sheol was a place for all people after they passed both the just and the wicked. God was then only a God of the living and not of the dead.

    Our understanding of the afterlife is in constant change. It was different in pre-biblical times than in the biblical Old Testament and different still in the New Testament and it continues to evolve today. We look at these things through a different cultural lense and future generations will look at it different still. I personally think we waste to much time and energy on worrying about it. Be good. Do good for and to others. Be happy. Let tomorrow sort itself out. If all there there is an afterlife (heaven or hell) or not it isn't productive to try to prove it.

    This from an agnostic person in general.
     
  20. Kahlan

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