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Gatekeepers & Exclusion

Discussion in 'Questioning & General LGBT' started by Acerna, Nov 24, 2020.  |  Print Topic


How do you feel about people not strictly in the letters LGBT?

  1. They should not be here/make their own community

    0 vote(s)
  2. They belong here and deserve support

    7 vote(s)
  3. They can be here, but they don’t strictly meet being IN a the community

    0 vote(s)
  4. Idk bro I’m just trying to figure myself out

    0 vote(s)
  5. I feel unsafe that they are here

    0 vote(s)
  6. Other

    0 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.

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  1. Acerna
    Holy Shit

    Acerna ACHOO!

    Nov 7, 2020
    +9 / 0 / -0
    Hi, I’m not sure where to put this or any warnings on it, but I wanted to ask this question and bring it up. For context I am currently having an online argument where the other person says intersex, any gender identification apart from non-binary and agender, asexuality, and pansexuality do no belong in LGBT communities. Get that they strictly only say LGBT, not LGBT+, LGBTQ+ etc.

    So here’s my question: Allies, LGBT, above and those not listed, what is your stance on inclusion? Do you feel unsafe because intersex people and asexual people are allowed a part of this online community? If so, why (not judging, just want to use it for my own argument)?

    Perhaps trigger warning/phobia? Here’s some more context and if anyone wants to read this and give their own opinion, I’ll plop a big summary here. (Please correct any of my stuff if its wrong in any way, I’m not an expert)

    Things that they are arguing for:
    Intersex, demigirl/boy, androgynous, asexual, etc. do not belong in LGBT communities
    They make the people the communities were made for (strictly LGBT) unsafe
    They should just make their own community
    It’s not LGBTQA (as one person pointed out earlier) but it’s “just lgbt”
    Queer automatically makes you LGBT
    Pansexuality does not exist, and it is the same thing as Bisexuality (and vice versa? At the beginning they said pansexuality doesn’t, but near the end they’re saying bisexuality is just pansexuality)
    Non-binary and agender only count as transgender and can be included
    The ones they exclude they do because they do not face the same oppression
    “no, the entire world would not be a safe space if everyone around you accepted you.”

    I’ll explain their reasons behind them after I say what I’m arguing for:
    Intersex, demigirl/boy and all listed above should be accepted into LGBT+ communities
    No one should feel/does feel unsafe by those identities being accepted
    It is not that easy to make your own community, and it would be easier to just be accepted into existent ones first
    I’m pretty damn sure “LGBTQIAP+” is accepted by most people who support LGBTQ+, but its just long and confusing and a mouthful
    Not arguing with being queer making you LGBTQ, but using it as an arguing point for anyone else to be accepted as fast as they accepted queer people
    Pansexuality does exist, it’s not the same thing as bisexuality, and it’s rude to tell someone their sexuality doesn’t exist
    Yes they count and so should all the other gender identities
    That’s an unfair way to assess something, and many of the same things are shared in oppression, like conversion therapy (or corrective rape, for asexuals)
    Wouldn’t life be easier and safer if everyone accepted LGBTQ+ people?? Correct me if I’m wrong

    Reasons behind their argument: (to be honest, I have no idea but I’ll scrape something up)
    ¶ “bisexuality is the same as pansexuality. if you're attracted to both sexes, you're automatically attracted to all genders because everyone, no matter their gender, is of one of the two sexes.“
    ¶ “certain people are accepted in safe spaces while others are excluded because when you include people who the safe spaces are not meant for, the people who the safe space was originally meant for no longer feel safe”
    ¶ “the difference is that one is a neurological condition where someone's brain sex does not math their physical sex and the other is a condition where someone has both male and female sex characteristics. intersex people are excluded because they do not share many of the same experiences as nor are they oppressed by the same people as lgbt people, so neither intersex people nor lgbt people benefit from being in a community together.”
    ¶ “intersex people do not share many similar experiences with lgbt people, they are not oppressed by the same people as lgbt people, and they can be apart of the group of people that oppresses lgbt people, so intersex people and lgbt people do not benefit from being in a community together.”
    ¶ They provided a whole ass document of people from 1970’s to 2020 about people explaining bisexuality, and then proceeded to say pansexuality is the same thing
    ¶ “no, it's just lgbt.... the lgbt community is just lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people“
    ¶ “queer is a slur that only lgbt people can reclaim, so by just saying "lgbt," people who reclaim the slur are already included.”
    ¶ “intersex isn't a third separate sex, it's a combination of the two already existing sexes, so anyone of any sexuality can be attracted to intersex people.” (I never said it was a third sex)

    If you managed to skim through that, here’s my arguments/counter arguments quoted:
    ¶ “Bi is two, or more, in the case of LGBTQ+, and pan is all. Some bisexuals only like females and males, how could you say that's the same as someone who likes all genders?”
    ¶ “Why should people be excluded, and certain others be accepted? How would you feel if you were born different from everyone else, experienced oppression, finally found acceptance and a safespace to be yourself, but someone says that you're not allowed to be here because you're different from all the other different people?”
    ¶ “People are born transgender as are people born intersex, but one is mentally and one is physically. What's the difference? Why exclude certain people when they know they're not standard”
    ¶ “Unless someone is imposing on a group’s safespace, [they should not be excluded]” I put the brackets because I want to state my arguments, but I realize half of them are phrased as questions.
    ¶ “there is no other safespace....There’s no other place to go, no way to feel safe and included with people like you, especially if what you are experiencing is uncommon among people. That’s why they need the safespaces where they can feel comfortable being themselves. They want it for the same purpose as LGBT+ do. To feel accepted for who they are, proud of who they are, and able to connect with others who are similar to them.”
    ¶ “The same phrase [‘you haven’t found the right person yet’] is used in oppression, an extended slur you could say, so wouldn’t that make asexuals accepted by default?” Against why the different types of oppression backs up why they exclude people

    If you made it this far, congrats, I haven’t formed my latest argument on some things they replied with. Some of you may advise for me to ignore them but I do love debate and I want to put other people’s opinions and identities out there for safety. Ironically, they are almost LGBTphobic, to everyone else except those four letters. Again, correct my statements/questions if they’re wrong, I want to provide a better counter argument against what they stand for, since they seem to think I am remotely close to understanding their viewpoint.

    By the way, I’m pretty sure neither of us in the argument are even LGBT+ lmfao

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