1. Like the site? Help us keep it running! For $5 you can help keep the site running smoothly and disable ads for life. The site is funded by donations like this and minimal ad revenue: Click here to donate $5. Thank you!

Do you think non-binary people will be understood by society?

Discussion in 'Agender/Non-Binary/Fluid' started by Corvus, Dec 2, 2019 at 7:33 AM.  |  Print Topic

Support the site and hide ads for life for $5. Click here to donate.

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 9 users.
  1. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    I know that non-binary is a "new thing" for most people outside the LGBT community (and for a few inside the community too) so it makes sense that it's less well-know and understood than some of the other gender and sexual identities but most people seem completely opposed to even acknowledging that enbys are real and valid.

    Lately I've been watching a few YT series about sexual and gender identities and for most part the comments are encouraging.

    On videos about lesbians other than the mandatory "lesbians are hot" comments mostly the comments boil down to a variation of "awww, isn't love beautiful?". Videos about gay men don't differ much which mostly comments saying "good for them, love who you love!"
    Even videos about trans people (speaking about MtF and FtM) are mostly positive with comments about "you be you" or "glad you're finding yourself"
    But every single time I get to a video about non-binary people the comment section is full of comments calling us "disgusting motherf...", and saying things like "just pick a gender and stop making us all uncomfortable", "hey, I'm an attack helicopter" or "these people would be better off dead". So much hate and prejudice, even from the same people who were praising other genders and sexualities for "being themselves"

    It's deflating to be honest and makes me less inclined to talk about it outside these forums (I'll make another thread on that). Do you guys think he'll ever get to a point where you'll be able to tell people that you're non-binary and be met with the same "oh, ok" reaction as if you tell people you're gay? (As a note, I'm not trying to minimise the prejudice some gay people still unfortunately face but as a whole I find that in most developed countries most people do not oppose gays as they once did)
     
  2. LiteStone
    Daring

    LiteStone Just a chill person
    Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2019
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +32 / 0 / -0
    I really don't know, on one ahdn the same was going down with gay people in the past where they were calles dishuisting, but on the other hand a lot of people still believe in the man/woman gender and nothing inbetween or outside of it sadly. So I'm gonna stay positive and say yes because it takes time adjusting and there are already people outside of the LGBT circle (my employer for example) who already exepts the non-binaire way of thinking
     
  3. Dreamsexual
    Tolerant

    Dreamsexual Reliable Contributor
    Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2019
    Messages:
    271
    Location:
    South West UK
    Ratings:
    +282 / 0 / -0
    Yes.
    Most people I meet in RL are already fine with it, let alone in a decade's time. Don't trust the Internet to provide a clear picture on anything :) 
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  4. Bornunderabadsign
    Cloud_9

    Bornunderabadsign Transfeminine Natural Disaster
    Moderator Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    Ratings:
    +2,237 / 0 / -1
    I think eventually it will be accepted that gender is a spectrum and that the binary will die. When we start being ourselves without so many labels I think we will have a better time of it. I'm not kicking the labels just saying that eventually I hope we can just be us.
     
  5. Bakabakabaka

    Bakabakabaka Bonefide pizza connoisseur
    Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2019
    Messages:
    65
    Ratings:
    +86 / 0 / -3
    I think its an interesting one. The only reason i believe people have a different reaction towards it is because to most people who don't understand this type of thing it's a pretty far flung that you can be another gender when gender has always traditionally been a binary system (this isn't what i believe im just talking from a 'normie' perspective meaning general society) As for the attack helicopter thing that's just a meme.. ignore that. I think the problem that most society has with it is "where does it end?" i mean recently you have been DISABELING themselves so that they can get rid of their privalege and identify as disabled. I think for general society they just see progressivism in general as getting increasingly more absurd. Personally my opinion is that people should stop identifying as anything other than human and just treat everybody like they are just another human being regardless of what they like but i know that realistically wouldn't happen. For society as a whole i think it is difficult to keep up with this ever shifting sea of progressivism if you are not part of it and thus you get people who don't accept new ideas I think it's actually a sign that the LGBT needs to get less complicated but instead it continues to expand and people get left further and further behind. Imagine being told that light is both a wave and a partical when you have no grasp of physics. From the view of society where does it end... if the lgbt came out tommrow and said that furry was now a part of the lgbt as a sexual orientation and was to be celebrated do you think society should just run with that? How about Pe**ph**** they are already trying to infiltrate the lgbt (if you are interested look up MAPS) . I'm not saying these are my beliefs or that I think the world should be as bigoted as it is but i can at least see WHY.
     
    #5 Bakabakabaka, Dec 2, 2019 at 1:06 PM
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 1:14 PM
  6. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    That was my first reaction as well. "look how far acceptance toward same sex relationships has come" but but the past few years I've seen acceptance go backwards where I live and there's been recent studies can confirm my suspicions (it's been on the news recently). Acceptance towards LGBT, immigrants, abortions, euthanasia...it's all going down and that scares me a little.

    Normally I would agree with that sentiment but the internet reaction mirrors my own experience quite closely (albeit with far more name calling). So far I have yet to have a positive reaction to me "coming out". Granted, I can count by my fingers the amount of people I've come out to but on the other hand they all claim to be allies. Even my own wife told me yesterday that she sees me as a guy and that she doubts she'll ever see me as anything else. Ouch.

    I think the need for labels will diminish when people stop assuming them for others.

    I can see your point but I don't feel like I have the right to decide what does or does not constitute a valid identity. That's what the world outside is doing to NBs right now, and I won't be a part of it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  7. Bakabakabaka

    Bakabakabaka Bonefide pizza connoisseur
    Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2019
    Messages:
    65
    Ratings:
    +86 / 0 / -3
    Oh im not saying it's justified but all as im saying is that from a society stand point i can somewhat understand it. Regardless of if you want no part in it or not if you let the opinions of society affect you then thats kinda how it is at the moment. The problem is i don't really see it getting better as it did for the original lgbt or at least it taking a really really long time for society as a whole to catch up. Only really basing that on the fact that people knew of the lgb at the very least for 100's if not thousands of years with the t only really comming in in the last like 10 years or so and even that is not fully accepted yet. I think society at the moment has just given up on trying to catch up and the lgbt has just kinda shot off the radar a little bit. I 100% support non-binary identity just saying if this comes across slightly warped because at this point what im saying isn't much more of the rambled musings of my brain.
     
  8. Bakabakabaka

    Bakabakabaka Bonefide pizza connoisseur
    Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2019
    Messages:
    65
    Ratings:
    +86 / 0 / -3
    For someone from the lgbt walking down the street you might be able to think well maybe they are non-binary but for ordinary people not part of the lgbt usually they will go down the street and put them into the box of either male or female depending on how they look. The population of non-binary people is really quite low so people haven't got used to the idea that there might be a third box for people it doesn't even register to most people that there even is a third box.
     
  9. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    I see what you mean, and I agree. Thanks for clarifying. The brain has a need to order things and even I sometimes still try to order things in the binary. The difference is, I correct myself and most people still don't realise that they have to.
    As I said in a comment further up, support for the LGBT community is lowering so yeah, I think improvements won't be seen any time soon.
     
  10. Izabelle

    Izabelle Greenhorn

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    From Everywhere and Nowhere
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0
    There's actually a really interesting discussion to be had here and so anyone can add/ correct me if I'm wrong in anything this is just what I've learned recently in college and I think it's a really interesting discussion. Fair warning though I don't really know if it's a more positive outlook or disappointing so take it as needed! Our gender binary is actually a very westernized term and exists from Western nations. Because Western nations are held to be some kind of pinnacle of human civilization (more in regards because of colonialism and they took over the world so they must be the best yadda yadda that BS), but they decimated a lot of cultures who traditionally had a third gender. Whether this gender was a multi-gender, third gender or a non-binary like gender depends; But regardless we don't learn about it much because many countries attempt to live in a western-style society and western societies don't exactly talk about other cultures, they've impacted. So, it may seem that society will never accept the non-binary gender this may not be the case it's just western societies are much slower in doing so because they hold on to this binary ideal. For example, in Thailand, there actually exists a third gender known as kathoey which exists outside of a binary gender system. It is generally well accepted and Thailand is actually one of the largest growing sexual confirmation surgery hotspots internationally. Many who identify as male, female or kathoey undergo sexual confirmation surgery regularly. Kathoey shouldn't be compared to transgender because they aren’t the same and transgender the word itself implies a gender binary system which doesn't exist in Taiwanese society. We see this again in Native American populations who have two-spirit which is more commonly known in modern days. I personally believe there is an innate need in societies internationally to conform to western ideals so as to gain power or maintain the power they currently have ; with that comes a set of expectations that aren't necessarily the norm as we believe them to be such as a gender binary system. It may be hopeful to remind ourselves that cultures have existed for thousands of years without a binary system but people attempt to maintain the status quo (western ideals) instead of diverting (and accepting a different system) because it's easier to maintain this gender binary system. These things also take time and it feels like forever for us but think about how far we've come with LGBTQ+ rights in the past 50 years? The way people responded to people simply identifying as gay then is the same way they're acknowledging non-binary individuals now. People react extremely when their ideas/beliefs/values or challenged, except we're just hearing about it more now because the internet is giving a voice and publicity to millions of people's opinions and hateful words. People weren't as exposed to that in the '50s because everything was face to face and either people didn't believe it was so widespread or bullys were less harsh to people's faces.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  11. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    Wow, Izabelle...you came out of nowhere with a thesis. I'm positively impressed :) 
    A few days ago I read about the Mahu (Tahiti's "third gender") which amounts to a lot of what you said as well. A third gender is not exactly the same as agender but it's definitely closer than the binary.

    I hope that the limitations imposed largely by insecurity will disappear eventually but not sure when that'll be...I also feel that since people look at me and see male I'm using a privilege I don't want to be using but nothing about me really screams LGBT so I'm having a bit of trouble with visibility...planning on creating a thread to discuss that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  12. CanadianNative

    CanadianNative Genderqueer, gender questioning

    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    I think that eventually it will be..
    Many societies once recognized third genders some even more. Like indigenous communities pre western colonisation!
     
  13. RuneBeau
    Inspired

    RuneBeau Polyromantic Demisexual Trans Guy
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +361 / 0 / -0
    "This formula was developed by E.M Rogers in the 1960s, and various versions of it are widely used to give broad view of the diffusion of innovation. First, there there are the Innovators. These are the people who have a new idea, and they make up about 2.5% of the group. Once these passionate people get organized and begin to spread their idea, about 13.5% of the group agree immediately with the new idea. These are the Early Adopters. They are the kind of people who are always on the lookout for positive change, and they are very proud of this; it is important part of their self-identity. At this point, about 16% of the group are on the side of change, with 84% against the change. Next come the 34% who are the Early Majority Adopters. These are leaders who understand the idea and have had time to see its value. They have come to believe in the new idea and now put their weight behind it. Suddenly there is a shift or tipping point in the majority viewpoint. The next group are the Late Majority Adopters. These are the next 34% who shift their view point quite quickly, once they realize that a majority of others have. They are willing to follow whatever the majority thinks. Now 84% of the group are fully behind the new idea. The remaining 16% are called Laggards, and many of them will never, never, never, change. They firmly believe they are right, everyone else is wrong, and they will not compromise their principles."
    Homosexuality: A Conversion, How A Conservative Pastor Outgrew The Idea That Homosexuality Is A Sin. -The Reverend John H. Tyson, Ph. D.

    In this quote John is talking about LGB acceptance, in regards to it's rise and momentum, and how he believes religion has and will continue to change their beliefs on homosexuality.

    I think this will hold true for the trans/GNC community as well and that we are close to the 'tipping point.'

    Here are some statics from the PRRI April 2019 Survey:

    Just over half (55%) of Americans believe there are only two genders, including 43% who say they feel strongly about this. Four in ten (40%) Americans believe that there is a range of possible gender identities, including nearly one-quarter (24%) who say they feel strongly about this.

    Nearly three-quarters (73%) of Republicans believe that gender is strictly binary, including 62% who strongly agree, compared to 50% of independents and 45% of Democrats. A majority (52%) of Democrats believe there is a range of possible gender identities, including 30% who say they feel strongly about this.

    A majority (63%) of Americans say they would be somewhat or very comfortable having a close friend tell them they are transgender. Over half (56%) of Americans report that they would feel somewhat or very comfortable learning that a local elementary school teacher is transgender. Less than half (48%) would feel somewhat or very comfortable with having their own child tell them they are transgender.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    #13 RuneBeau, Dec 3, 2019 at 8:49 PM
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 8:51 PM
  14. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    RuneBeau Fascinating quote. I feel like the general mood here is "you can pretend to be whatever you want as long as you don't tell me" which is miles better than "I'll kill you on sight" but way behind acceptance. With acceptance levels for several groups (as I said before, LGBT, immigrants, etc) starting to decline let's see if we can reverse that course soon.
    Strangely enough I feel that a Democratic win in 2020 would help with this, even in Europe since the two blows to acceptance over here were the Brexit vote and Trump's election...both those event emboldened people to openly discriminate and people are stepping back into their old comfortable intolerant shoes.
     
  15. CrinklyConnor

    CrinklyConnor Non-Binary Toddler

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    I’m personally not very optimistic about non-binary becoming a well-accepted group of people in general society as much as binary trans people are purely on the basis that anything outside of the binary was practically erased due to a number of things in history, not to mention that people seem to not be able to wrap their heads around anything outside of the binary. Unfortunately, for now, it’s going to take a while, but I think we’ll eventually get there!
     
  16. RuneBeau
    Inspired

    RuneBeau Polyromantic Demisexual Trans Guy
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +361 / 0 / -0
    I think people are starting to break away from the view of binary gender. Even in my close minded republican state people can now mark X instead of M or F on their state ID.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  17. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    That's great! Don't think that's a thing here yet other than for intersex people. Also while trying to confirm this I just read an article about "a woman who changed her gender in her passport, and she now has an X instead of V becoming the first woman in the Netherlands to do so". Seriously, wtf was that article? Do they even realise what the X means?
     
  18. RuneBeau
    Inspired

    RuneBeau Polyromantic Demisexual Trans Guy
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +361 / 0 / -0
    I see this sort of thing all too often and it makes me cringe. Some NBs do go by she/he or a combination of pronouns instead of just they but 'woman' leads me to believe they didn't make any effort to use the correct descriptors at all, yikes!
     
  19. Corvus
    Chatty

    Corvus Agender chatterbox
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +1,140 / 0 / -0
    That was what I thought too. For me pronouns don't matter all that much but my nostrils will flare up at being called a man. When the title of the article is "first Dutch gender neutral passport issued" I highly doubt the person they're referring to identifies with the term "woman", which was used several times in the article.
     
  20. RuneBeau
    Inspired

    RuneBeau Polyromantic Demisexual Trans Guy
    Premium Supporter Beloved Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +361 / 0 / -0
    It's so sad that they didn't use the right words. :( 
     

Support the site and hide ads for life for $5. Click here to donate.

Share This Page