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Am I allowed to be Catholic and accept the LGBTq+ community?

Discussion in 'Heterosexual' started by PseudonymSilk, Aug 19, 2017.  |  Print Topic

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  1. john1010101
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    Ducky, I don't want to insult you but that's so confused an explanation I'll pass the opportunity to refute it.
     
  2. AudryLeigh
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    Sorry if it's over your head, it's over the heads of many physics professors too. BTW, my name is not 'Ducky'.
     
  3. john1010101
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    If you weren't a moderator I might have something sharp to say. I'll also refrain from addressing you again in what, in Australian gay circles of our age group, is actually a term of endearment. Silence is I feel now the best option however.
     
  4. anon_abstraction
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    If you wanna know some stuff about the Bible and it's interpretations read this. It goes very deep into detail of how the modern interpretations of the Bible is flawed if not downright wrong about homosexuality.

    The word "homosexuality" wasn't added to the bible until the 1940s. The word "sodomy" wasn't even a word to describe anything of a sexual nature until the 13th century 1200 years after the Bible is written.
    '
    There is just as much evidence in the Genesis 19 account for God destroying Sodom and Gommorah because Lot's daughters were so bangable and the men turned them down that that is why God destroyed them.

    God's all: "C'mon guys...they're hot and you choose rape...seriously?!"

    It turns out it was probably hospitality not the rape that condmened them. That is just what is the most common interpretation is. Purity laws...ten commandments...all of that came much much later in history. You can't really apply laws that came 2000 years after Genesis was written[citation needed] to Genesis .

    So if you truly believe in God then you will believe Mathew 22:39, the second greatest commandment, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and Mathew 7:1-5 judge not lest you be judged in an equal measure. I think that Mathew 25:31-46 still applies to Catholocism. Parable of the goats and the sheep.

    Note: I honestly don't know the differences between Protestants and Catholics. I have lots of arguments I know work for Protestants. I honestly don't know how Catholocism works so I could be wrong about a lot of this stuff.

    also note: This person came here to find ways to love fellow human beings. Lighten up, hating on someone who is trying to help....is not going to help.
     
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  5. john1010101
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    Probably they did but to support anyone's delusion the Roman church has been or is lacking ill will towards us is to support an untruth. Until and unless the Vatican confesses to the many sins it has committed over the centuries against our kind I will continue to attack their twisted theology and misinterpretation of scripture.
    As I have previously done on this forum, I need to confess something myself. Eleven years studying the pipe organ from a young age at a catholic cathedral and witnessing the moral hypocrisy being dished up from the pulpit whilst experiencing the evils being committed against the young behind the scenes by the priesthood may inform my perspective.
    Vos can non habeat fiduciam sacerdotium vindicetis.

    And no, I don't 'hate' the original poster only hoping to cast some light into the darkness permeating this area.
     
    #45 john1010101, Oct 5, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  6. anon_abstraction
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    So you are taking it out on a kid that is trying to find a way to love instead of hate? Does that seem counterintuitive to you? Did this kid rape people? Did this kid start the wars? Excommunicate entire nations? Is this kid a priest? Is this kid the pope and can answer for those atrocities?

    I'm gonna guess "no" but what do I know? I'm not a catholic.

    Here is an article about the Pope of the Catholic Church and homosexuals.

    Pope Francis is a pretty cool dude. Why are you blaming and yelling at a kid who is trying to find a way to love? Did you read between the lines of the OP? This person is at the tipping point and needs a reason to tip in our direction and you are pushing them away.

    What happened over 100 years ago cannot change, cannot be fixed. If your great great great great grampa were to have done something terribly wrong would you be responsible for reparations? I certainly wouldn't want to be. Why is it different between this kid and the church?

    I'm also going to guess acts of a sexual nature by priests is against Catholic catechism. So why blame the entire religion based on human error?
    You have a funny way of showing it. You sound angry and bitter and definitely not helpful.

    I am giving scripture that is misinterpreted and telling them why it is. What are you accomplishing other than being angry? Is there catharsis in yelling at a kid that has done nothing to hurt you? What facts have you presented other than what happened while you cleaned the organ?

    This kid has no power to change the church, only herself. Maybe, just maybe, if you show her kindness and how the scripture is wrong, she may change her mind. In her formative years gently guiding her is going to help her more than crawling down her throat the second the Bible is mentioned. That's always true though, no matter the age.
     
  7. john1010101
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    If you imagine recommending John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture' to the original poster is in no way helpful I wonder what is? Should I have gone into a detailed analysis of the correct translation of Arsenokoites in 1st Corinthians 6:9?
    Angry and bitter? Methinks that's the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  8. anon_abstraction
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    I will admit to being angry and bitter towards Christians in general. I am working on it. I'm just trying to not return hatred for hatred and it's hard. But hating back on an innocent helps no one.

    I honestly didn't see that post. All I saw was anger of building intensity. So it appears you ARE trying to help, I just don't agree with the intensity of your methods.
     
  9. Nothere
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    There are a lot of responses that seem to be religious debate. I can't offer that, I'm agnostic. But I'm confused as why you came specifically to the LGBT community to ask to be accepted. The only reason I can think of is you want to see if the other side, the lgbt community is willing to accept Catholics as many Catholics are unwilling to accept lgbts. I think the answers to your actual questions vary.

    I would of course accept you as a confused Catholic straight girl... I would not like you if your views are harmful to the community. But then again a lot of people seem to speak as if they are representing the entire community they belong to, which can be dangerous and is why religion has been and is very dangerous to lgbts. Some people will accept you and some won't. But that shouldn't represent the whole community. After all, we want to be seen as individual people and judged on that, not just a part of a whole entity, therefore my beliefs are theirs.

    I don't want that to be misconstrued into not associating with the LGBT community. A lot of us deal with similar prejudice and hate. Just a post like this makes me think you want one answer that represents us all. Someone who has been mistreated by Catholics or Christians may not accept you. Hopefully they can get past that at some point. Some LGBT ARE Catholic.

    Religion has been interpreted different ways as we move through society. It's okay to see that and adopt that religion through your own agency.

    Shit, this became long... I hope it made sense.
     
  10. anon_abstraction
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    If by that you mean, no matter what group a person belongs to, there is no way they are going to agree on everything, then yes, you made perfect sense. I definitely agree.

    I don't care if you are a liberal, a conservative, a Wiccan, a Christian, or goddam jeezus Christ, as long as you're not an asshole, I feel I can probably get along with most anyone.

    It's a lesson everyone needs to learn over and over, a label will make person identical to another person. REGARDLESS of what the label is. Stereotyping is wrong no matter what the label is.
     
  11. Stormlord
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    Hello :) 

    please understand that the political spat between the lgbt+ and the Christian lobby do not reflect either of our members personal views.

    we endorse tolerance and love and so you are completely welcome

    <3 Storm
     
  12. Missmissy griffin
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    To the op. My take, being gay, lesbian, trans or bi is not a sin, period. Love is love in all it's forms. I know a crazy radical idea that has the fundi Christians frothing. Sorry it's what i believe.

    The thing is, do you support all the bible teachings. We know that wearing a blended wool jacket is an abomination unto the lord as the bible tells us so. Just as a man laying with a man is an abomination. But do you really believe that is the case. Will you go to hell for wearing a 80% merinowool/20% polyester sweater. I'm thinking not. Boy that would be crazy if that was the case.

    The bible also says that a daughter who has premarital sex should be stoned to death at the door to her fathers house. Or if she's not a virgin on her wedding night, yeppers another stoning. My question is why aren't the guys stoned too. gee, so sexiest.

    Yet in 50 years, I yet to read of a single stoning in the USA. So gay sex is a sin, but no stoning. How weird is that. It's like folks are picking and choosing parts of the bible they like while ignoring other parts of gods holy word.

    Or that the daughter may be sold into slavery. Or that a rapist may marry the daughter if he gives the father 40 shackles of silver. Really. Yet none of that happens in modern society.

    You think being LGBT is a sin because your taught it is a sin. But you completely ignore the stoning and slavery that is very well spelled out and required in the bible. It's almost like some folks are using the bible to discriminate against others. Shocking.

    Please dear christian's, no need to remind me I will burn in hell. I'm looking forward to it. Better hot tubs I hear.

    Namaste.
     
  13. Happyninja42
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    Except the world isn't black and white, in almost any situation. I know religions like to say it is, but there are tons of examples of exceptions in religion, in both the doctrine contradicting itself, and in how the modern worshiper actually follows those doctrines. You're right, Catholicism is very binary in what it says is right/wrong, but a lot of the things it says you are supposed to do, people ignore. The problem is that the rules and morals the book promotes, are actually pretty barbaric in a lot of ways, and people ignore them. Ignore the parts that say things like stone people who break these rules, that are ultimately minor things, but then they don't ignore this other rule over here that helps support their own personal viewpoint.


    That would be nice, but the problem is that the belief system you say you follow, judges the other side as a fundamental aspect of it. You said above that you are taught to love people, but your book also says you are supposed to kill people, and it also tells you you are supposed to go proselytize to the non-believer. And a bunch of other inherently jerkish things. Sadly, you can't ignore all of the horrible things that your religion instructs you to do, and just follow the "be nice to everyone". Because you are using the laws from the asshole-heavy book (Old Testament) to justify treating the LGBT community different in the first place. But then trying to use the revised "Let's make God not look like a mass mudering egomaniac book" (New Testament) to have some moral high ground to work from. You can't have it both ways.

    Now sure it would be nice if people on either side didn't judge, but the issue it that it's pretty common for people of a religious stance, to have a negative, and confrontational view of "the others". You can say you love them, but deep down, a lot of you think they're still going to hell because of what they believe. And not just that, but that they deserve it, because of their sexual orientation. All of that baggage comes pre-loaded when you say you are a Catholic.

    And be clear here, the only anti-gay views I've ever heard of EVER, have been religiously based. There might be some very small, and non-vocal, secular group out there, that has some secular reason why they think the LGBT community is evil, and sinners, and all that shit. But I've never heard of them. The anti-LGBT stance is pretty much exclusively religious in nature. Nobody is holding up signs saying "Science/Evolution Hates Fags", but they sure are holding up those signs when God is included.


    You're not alone in that. Everyone alive goes through that, as well as the puberty comment you mentioned :)  That's what growing up is about. You start to understand how the world works in ever increasing layers of complexity, and you have to sift through that information and figure out how you fit into it.


    My personal opinion on this, as an atheist is no, you can't be religious in general, and not be closeminded. By definition, following a set of rules simply because "This Person Said So", is the definition of closed mindedness. Why do you think you should follow the rules? Because you were raised that way? Well what about everyone else in the world who was raised in a different religion, that if you truly believe Catholicism, are WRONG, but who would return the same reasons for their faith as you likely would. As Tracie Harris from the Atheist Experience once said on one of their episodes, and I'm paraphrasing here. "To obey a set of moral guidelines, without actually questioning why, isn't being a moral being (meaning that you actually have agency with your morality), you are just being a trained dog. You don't know why you shouldn't sit on the couch, you've just been taught since birth to not sit on the couch, so you don't do it." That's not being a moral being, that's just being an obedient being, especially when those rules instruct you to ostracize, and shun other people for reasons that simply don't hold up to actual scrutiny and inspection.

    But there's good news!! The fact that you ARE asking these questions, means you are actually trying to think these things out for yourself. Which is what you should do. I suspect you've never actually questioned your belief, like most people, and just simply believed what you were taught to believe, again, like most people. Take a good look at what your religion actually says, the parts they don't teach you in Mass, or sunday school. The parts that are truly ugly and cruel, and ask yourself if that's actually a god of compassion, or if people have just done a makeover on a very old, barbaric depiction of a fictional being.

    Of course your problems matter. The idea that "You don't have it as bad as me, therefore your opinion/problems are invalid" is utter shit. It's not your fault you were born to the parents you were born to, or the lifestyle that you were raised in. None of us get a say in that, they don't get our opinion before birthing us. But you DO have control over how you live your life, and what you make of it. You can choose to continue to follow a set of rules, that apparently are conflicting with your own since of decency and humanity, and compassion, or you can choose to just accept people for how they are, as you would like to be accepted by them. The issue isn't you, it's with how your religion has made you think you should behave, when deep down, you know it's not right.


    Yep, every single day, you are you. If the You you want to be, is in conflict with your religion, and your religion is telling you to be a You you don't like, then should you really listen to that religion?

    I know you said early on, that you don't want to stop being Catholic, but ask yourself this:

    Why? What about it do you want to hang onto? Is it the community aspect of it? There are plenty of communities (this is one for example) that you can be a part of, that don't have that dogma.

    Is it because you were simply raised in it and that's all you know? If so, think about all the other things you were raised to believe in, that you now know to not be true, and ask yourself why you being Catholic gets a free pass on this same level of scrutiny.

    Is it because you are afraid if you stop believing how they tell you to, they will ostracize you and shun you, thus treating you like how they say you should treat others? If so, then maybe it's not such a great institution, despite the thousands of years of Public Relation campaigns they've made to make themselves look good.

    Personally, I hope you ditch the religion, as there really isn't any part of it that is good that is unique to religion. Every positive aspect of religion, can be easily replicated in a secular way. And you get the bonus of not being told by an invisible sky dude to hate other people because of them thinking differently than you :p 
     
  14. anon_abstraction
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    Holy sh*t Happyninja42! I thought I checked this to unwatch this thread.

    [​IMG]

    I have never seen that argument before, but the reason I didn't pick up Buddhism is specifically because I would be constrained by rules I could not in all good conscience follow. I couldn't be my own person because I couldn't follow ALL of the rules. Because it is true like you and Missmissy griffin said, you can't pick and choose but it's something everyone does. Like, Holy Jeezus, that was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen anyone do theologically. Gave me the goosepimples.

    I have never seen such an effortless, yet compassionate take down of religion in my entire life. All I have ever been able to accomplish was one of them. You did ALL of them at once. You didn't even use any religion to disprove their religion. Bravo my friend, bravo.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. HopeM

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    You do you! Don’t let the church tell you what to believe and don’t let others influence what you believe! Just decide what you believe is right and wrong and formulate your own idea of the community!
    Much love, Hope
     
  16. Happyninja42
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    Well thank you :D  I'm glad I got my point across, I was a bit worried I was rambling. I have that problem sometimes when I slice up a post into individual questions to answer each directly. As a lot of people, myself included, will do a post with like 12 different issues, and there isn't really any one answer for them :D 

    *gives a slightly embarrassed bow* Glad to be of service.
     
  17. naturegal
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    Friendly Jewish lesbian perspective here, (my mom's family is super Catholic but I'm not), I have a more open approach to pretty much everything so what I think might not be in line with some more strict religious stuff, but I think that Catholicism is a religion of compassion and that for a person's compassion to be true it is given to all who are deserving of it. People don't chose to be lgbt, we're born this way. Just like you were probably born into a Catholic family, although if Catholicism didn't resonate with you it would be possible to change that aspect of your life. You can't change being trans or queer, just as much as you can't change having green eyes or curly hair. In my opinion, you can accept and condone lgbt people and still be a valid Catholic. Catholicism teaches true compassion and that is not limited to a window of people that are all the same.
     

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